ALDERSLEY INFORMATION

[Stanley]

ALDERSLEY INFORMATION
I thought you might be interested in some further information about the Aldersleys that are referenced in Mr. Hartley's account. The family was based in Lothersdale in the 1700s and graduated migrated outwards. The ones that arrived in Gargrave came via Broughton as follows. (The parenthetical numerals after each name are for purposes of keeping everyone straight in my files.) There were no Aldersleys in Gargarve before 1810 that I know of. In that year, on June 4th, an Anne Aldersley gave birth to Thomas Ordersley, father unknown. This Thomas was baptized on December 16th, 1810. I have also found a reference to the marriage of one Judith Ordersley [3] in Gargrave on May 30th, 1811 to Henry Clark. Since “Ordersley” is a relatively rare alternative spelling of the family name, it seems likely that Thomas and Judith were closely related. I have no record of what happened to Thomas or Judith. Instead, it was the marriage of Laycock Aldersley & Frances Eglin (or Elgin, not sure which) in 1815 in Broughton which ultimately led to the spread of the male Aldersley line in Gargrave. The couple had four sons and one daughter, the eldest three being born in Broughton. These were Sandy Alexander [1] born in 1816, Thomas [11] born in 1819 and Frances [4], in 1820. It seems like the family moved to Gargrave some time between Frances’ birth and January, 1824, when a third son Jeremiah [3] was baptized in Gargrave. In October, 1826, Laycock died, but another son was on the way and his namesake, Laycock [2] was baptized in Gargrave in May, 1827. (I have no further information about this Laycock.) I also have no further record of Sandy except I think he may have died in 1832. Thomas [11] married Mary Green of Giggleswick in 1846. (Mary being the one that John Hartley called the sister of his grandfatehr in your transcription.) Thomas & Mary had five sons and one daughter that I know of. The family appears to have remained in Gargrave until the mid to late 1850’s. In 1859, Thomas died. His last child, Bateman [2] was baptized in Clitheroe in about 1859, whether before or after his death, I don’t know. By 1871, Mary and her family were living at Mill Cottage, Thornton. Ten years later, in 1881, Mary was at Bridge End, Thornton, apparently living alone and working as a laundress. She died in 1886. Thomas & Mary’s eldest son, Jeremiah [6] was baptized in 1848. I have no further information about him. The next eldest was Thomas [16], baptized in Gargrave in 1850. He was living with his mother in Thornton at the time of the 1871 census, by which time he was employed as a cotton weaver. He married Sara Holmes in 1876. By 1891, he had moved his growing family to Earby and they were living on Water Street. The third son was John (Jack) [59], born in 1852. A blacksmith, he married Elizabeth Smith of Earby in 1875, and after her death the following year, Mary Jane Briggs, also of Earby in 1878. By 1891, the family were living at Green End. The fourth son, Richard Laycock [1], was baptized in Gargrave in August, 1854. In the 1871 census, he is listed as a cotton spinner, living with the rest of the family at Mill Cottage. He married Mary Ann Holmes in 1877 in Thornton and by 1891 was in Earby. Subsequently, he moved down the road to Kelbrook which is where he died in 1934. Back to Laycock & Frances’ children. In the autumn of 1848, Jeremiah [3] married a Gargave girl, Ellen Lund, the daughter of William & Sarah Lund. The couple appear to have remained in the town for the rest of their lives. The 1881 census has them living at Higher Land, Gargrave, when Jeremiah is described as a “general labourer” & his wife as a “charwoman”. Jeremiah died in 1888. In 1891, his widow was still living in Gargrave on West Street. She died at the beginning of 1900. Jeremiah & Ellen had at least eight children. They were Elizabeth Alice [43] born in 1850, Nathan [2], born in 1852, Laycock [3], born in 1855, Fanny [9], born in 1857, Dawson Elgin, aka Thomas [1], born in 1860, Thomas Henry [19], born in 1862, Jeremiah [7], born in 1864, and Mary Ellen [88], born in 1867. Five of the eight children were living at Higher Land with their parents in 1881 - Elizabeth Alice and Laycock were already married (in 1873 and 1878 respectively) and I have no additional information about Dawson. Nathan [2] married Alice Dinsdale of Gargrave in 1873. Nathan & Alice remained residents of Gargrave until at least 1891, but, by 1901, had moved to Rosteltop Road, Earby with a growing family. The 1881 and 1891 census listed him as a cotton mule spinner and as a factory operative in 1901. He died in 1937. Laycock [3] married Elizabeth in 1878. In 1881, they were living at Old Hallfold, Higher Land, Gargrave, with Laycock listed as an agricultural laborer. Laycock died in 1929, when he was still living at the same address (which was presumably a farm). Laycock & Elizabeth had seven daughters and two sons. All were resident in Gargrave at the time of the 1901 census except Alexander [4], who died at age five. I have few details on the daughters. The surviving son, Jeremiah [11], married in Wakefield and subsequently lived in Keighley. Thomas Henry [19] married Mary [76] in 1882. The couple were living in River Place, Gargrave in 1891, Thomas being listed as a cotton mule spinner. Thomas Henry & Mary had three daughters and three sons, all born in Gargrave. I have no details of the daughters, except that Mary Ann [103] (born in 1884) & Minnie [5] (born in 1887) were listed as cotton spinners in the 1901 census. The three boys were William Harry [66], born in 1892, Horace [1], born in 1897 and Jerry [12], born in 1901. Horace [1] married Ellen Croft in 1920. They had a number of children and it is this line that is perhaps most likely to have Aldersleys represented in the Gargrave of today. William Harry [66] married Phyllis Luft in 1917. I know little of their line after their marriage, except that I believe they lost a son, Douglas Horace, in the Second World War. Jerry [12] married Norah Hogg in 1928. Jeremiah [7] married Rose [1] in 1900. The couple remained in Gargrave after they married. Jeremiah was described as a stone mason in the 1901 census. He died in 1926. Rose was still living in Gargrave – at Higher Land – when she died in 1952. I only know of one child, Ernest [6], who I think may have been killed in the First World War. If anyone has any information pertaining to any of the above, I'd be delighted to hear it. As must always correctly be pointed out, there are a number of assumptions in this kind of pieced-together account that may or may not be true. This group of Aldersleys is a of course a small band of the large number that can be traced back to Lothersdale. It's an especially interesting one to me since members of at least three of the more recent generations that followed after the ones I've described at some point independently upped and came to North America. I don't belong to their number, being descended from a different line of the family, but, having made the same decision to remove to the States, I have a certain sympathy for them. Stephen Aldersley

[Taldersley]

Reckon I could help you fill in some of your gaps. Especially the Gargrave Aldersley's.

[Stanley]

Welcome to the site and fire away. Researchers pick up these titles just as you did. First name?

[Taldersley]

My name is Tom Aldersley.

[Taldersley]

I should be able to fill the gaps from Horace, my great grandfather, to the present day. More or less.

[Sfance]

Tom - I'd be interested to hear how those gaps fill in. I'm guessing your mum was Pamela Tilbury? (I've been researching the family for about 30 years and specialize in an earlier period, and I'm not as up to date on the more modern Aldersleys.)

Stephen Aldersley, Rochester, NY, USA

[Stanley]

Stephen, welcome to the site. This isn't an active topic but rest assured you'll get picked up. Keep looking in on the topic....

[Sfance]

Thanks Stanley. Glad to be back.
While I'm on today though, I have a couple of questions. John Aldersley, my forbear, rented "Harden" in the late 1770s, early 1780s from William Wainmann. He paid £35-3-0 which was quite a chunk of money then, so it must have been a significant acreage. What I'm trying to deduce is whether it was Harden New Hall or Harden Old House. As I understand it, both belonged to Wainmann. Since the latter is closer to Raygill in Lothersdale where he lived, I'm guessing it was that one. But I'd love to know whether that's true, what the acreage was, and, lastly, whether he was most likely sheep-farming or whether some of the property would have been for crops.

[Wendyf]

Hi Stephen,
I have quite a bit of info about the Wainman properties in Harden and will have a look after tea! Wainman had Harden New Hall built but I think that was in the late 1790's or very early 1800's. Will get back to you later.

[Wendyf]

Sorry but I cant find anything which mentions John Aldersley. I do have a list of acreages of Wainman farms in 1851 and Harden Old House has just over 53 acres and Harden New Hall has just over 81acres.
New Hall land would be on the north facing side of the clough and the steep slopes of Kelbrook Moor so though the acreage is higher it wouldn't have been as valuable as the south facing land belonging to Harden Old House.
The Bradley and Wainman family had owned farms in Harden going back to the early 1700's including Kitchen, Harden Clough, Harden Old House and Copy House. A list of the Bradley farms from 1712 shows John Cowgill paying a rent of £21-0-0 for Hardin, so I'm wondering if this included all the Harden properties and the same for John Aldersley at a later date.
(ps. I can see both Harden New Hall & Harden Old House from my house.)

[Stanley]

Just a note Stephen and I'm sure you already know it but we are on the same latitude as Labrador and the fact that land is on a south facing slope is very important. Sorry to state the bleeding obvious but some may not realise how important this is up here in the foothills!

[Sfance]

Stanley, I am confident that you are more than fully aware that not everything is obvious to everyone!

Wendy - Having done a little more work around my question last night, I have come to the conclusion (which of course might be supplanted by another conclusion at any minute) that John Aldersley's rental was more likely to have been Kitchen Farm than either of my two earlier choices. Why? Well, in the Cononley Historical Society treasure trove of documents that David Gulliver kindly gave me CDs of, I triangulated the page listing Wainmann's 1782 rentals in Harden (which does not give the names of the farms, but which has John Aldersley paying the heftiest rent) with an 1821 listing of land tax assessments for specific Harden farms and discovered that, at least in 1821, Kitchen carried the largest assessment. Assuming the amount of land tax reflects the number of acres (which I don't know for a fact), and assuming Kitchen was the same size in 1821 as it was in 1782, then I think it probable that that's the farm that John was renting. I still don't know how many acres that was - perhaps, again assuming there was no change in size, your 1851 list might be able to tell me. I still have the question about what John was doing with the farm (not knowing its precise location) - whether it was sheep, arable, or a mix of both. Worse, I am now questioning whether the John in question was the same John who was at that time at Raygill. I can't see why he would have wanted to rent both properties! But . . . I suspect that is my problem and one you won't be able to help me with!!!

Stephen

[Wendyf]

All the information I have comes from David Gulliver's wonderful collection too, but I don't have the list with John Aldersley on. Kitchen had 58 acres in 1851, so it wasn't a big farm. Like Harden New Hall and Harden Clough, Kitchen is on North facing land and tucked into the hillside. I'm no historian but I think these farms were originally mainly sheep farms. The original owners made their money from wool and then moved on down to the towns when the mills got going in the 18th century...renting out what then became small, poor subsistence farms....which most of them remained until the 1970's.
£35 was a lot of money, and I doubt if one farm alone in Harden was worth that amount of rent. I'm still thinking that Wainman probably sub-let all his Harden properties to John Aldersley at that time.
Here's a photo looking up the track past Low Laithe barn to Kitchen, probably taken in the 1940's or 50's. It gives you some idea of the lie of the land!




This LINK should take you to a recent photo of Harden New Hall.

[Stanley]

That's a lovely image Wendy. That barn has beasts in it eating the hay in the mow and needing looking at at least twice a day with an oil lamp. Outbarn management is a very old tactic and that pic encapsulates it all. Thanks for posting it.

[Wendyf]

It's a wonderfully atmospheric photo isn't it?
Stephen, I have posted a lot of photo's of my view down Harden Clough in THIS topic. Many of the pictures show Harden Old House to the right and Harden New Hall to the left. It's worth having a browse through to get some idea of the countryside around.

[Sfance]

Wendy, I don't know if the file references on the CD that David Gulliver gave me will be what you have, but here are the ones I've been looking at:
1740c [B2.2] Rental a - indicates that John Bradley had just three properties in Thornton, one of which was "Harden" which he was renting to Nathan Crabtree for £28.
1780c [B15.48] Great Harden a & b - a field map w/ accompanying notes and field names of a property Wainman calls "Great Harden", and possibly, alternatively "Bleary," which he wants to rent to Joseph Atkinson for £35. (This is presumably the same property John Aldersley rented two years later for the same price.)
1782.7.13 [B3.2] b - this is the document that identifies John A. as one of Wainman's Harden renters
1821 (CLHA B.12.48) Leaf g - this is the document with the land tax assessments for that year for Wainman's Thornton properties. (Clearly, by that time, he had bought more property in Thornton.
So far, that's all I've got to go on. I know there's an area in the neighborhood called Bleara, but I don't know if there is/was a farm called that. If so, that may be the one I'm looking for . . . .

In the meantime, thank you for pointing me to your photos. Since I am a few miles away from where you are, they are very helpful in getting my bearings.

Have a great weekend,
Stephen

[Stanley]

Not sure you know this Stephen but Thornton refers to Thornton in Craven which was the census district and parish that covered Earby and all the areas like Harden included in it. There was only one church for the whole lot, in Thornton itself.

[Wendyf]

I have copies of all but the 1782 list.
Here is the field map from approx 1780.



And the writing on the other side..



The field map is interesting, especially as the field boundaries have remained pretty much the same up to the present day. It also gives us a big clue to the area he was renting out at the time. Fields 1 to 10 belong to Coppy House which isn't marked on the map but is (and was) located in the north west corner of field number 4. Fields 11 to 22 belong to Harden Old House which is identified as "House" between 13 & 15.
Field 23, which is the area he names as Great Harden became the land of Harden New Hall which he built just west of the barn marked on the map.
The area belonging to Sir John Lister Kay was Cockett Farm.
Blearey or Bleara is a farm, located east of the fields marked on the plan. This appears to be the only mention of Bleara in the Wainman papers, and he must have sold it again before 1850 when it was being advertised for sale, not by the Wainman Estate because they always used Chambers Solicitors in Brighouse.
Here is a link to the first edition OS map of the area.
1st edition 6" OS Map

Anybody interested in old maps should have a look at the National Library of Scotland's Map website...full coverage of the UK with first edition 6inch OS maps and stunning quality!

[Sfance]

That's a great map, Wendy. Thank you. No other insights or discoveries at the moment!

[Stanley]

Isn't Oneguy wonderful when it's working like this. Nice people talking to each other. Very heartening!

[Sfance]

Stanley - I was just browsing the site and came across a thread talking about a 1975 BBC film on Lothersdale, "An Image of England" (maybe it was a series?) Anyway, can you tell me how I might get a copy?

[Stanley]

Wendy gave me my copy. I think you could get it from the BBC, they sell videos of some old programmes.

[Wendyf]

I haven't seen it available to buy anywhere Stephen, it came from a local source. If you would like a copy send me a pm with your details.

[Sfance]

Only just saw this Wendy. Just sent an e-mail to you care of the Earby & District LHS.

Stephen

[Stanley]

Stephen. I can't find any trace of the Aldersey Index entries which I thought I had posted for you so I've posted it again.