The Referendum.

[Big Kev]

Although not in favour of the result we live in a democracy and I will respect that result, there will be interesting times ahead. I work for a healthcare software company that provides for primary and secondary care within the UK, we don't have any customers in Europe. I'm hopeful that there will be no long term impact even though the company shares took a bit of a hit.

There are some interesting comments appearing over in Facebook land, the usual racist minority are keen to "chuck all the foreigners out" now and are celebrating a victory, I wonder how many of that minority actually voted? A private conversation with 'er indoors wondered how the minority would have reacted if the result had been to stay; would there have been civil unrest? It doesn't take much for the minority to kick off...

[PanBiker]

The remaining EU nations are already hardening their view on our exit. Jean-Claude Juncker has already dismissed Cameron's wish to delay Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and said he could see no reason why we should not start immediate negotiations for a speedy exit. The nice commiserations are now over, the USA may have affirmed continuation of our "special relationship" but at the same time have made it clear that we will be back of the stack for trade. The extreme right wing factions across Europe must be rubbing their hands, they profit from chaos. Ireland is a worry with the prospect of border fences and patrols being reinstated. Not nice to think of but you can imagine some factions already digging up the arms caches. Spain has already determined to see the Spanish flag flying on Gibraltar, the last time they took that posture we sent Navy gun boats, we can't do that now as we no longer have the clout. It's the proverbial train wreck in slow motion, but it's speeding up all the time. I can't help thinking it will turn in to the equivalent of the train over the edge poster with the "Oh Shit" caption!

[Marilyn]

I know this is small potatoes to some folk, but do you think some of your availability to more exotic foodstuffs may change? ( I apologise to those suffering emotional decline but I was thinking on the outskirts of repercussions...being "shallow" and in great hope of an affordable UK holiday...forgive me... ). I am thinking exotic foodstuffs and wines may go by the wayside. ( fear not...I don't think it will stop our wonderful Aussie wines finding shelf space).
I see Boris was wearing his "bed hair" look today...

I understand Scotland. I don't quite understand Northern Ireland...

[Tizer]

Maz, most of our wine and exotic foodstuffs come from non-EU countries so at first guess I'd say they'll not be affected. But these things are often more complicated when you look at details. For instance, although availability might not be affected the price could go up if countries find it easier to send their produce to the EU than to individual countries (remember that food and drink is subject to lots of regulations worldwide, not just in the EU, and it's cheaper and easier to sell them to groups of countries in a union rather than outliers).

I think we have made the wrong choice for the wrong reasons and the pain will be felt by the lower percentiles of the electorate based on wealth.

Ironically, analysis of the vote distribution shows that it's `the lower percentiles of the electorate based on wealth' that have voted predominantly in favour of leaving the EU. Likewise, those areas of the country with the least education, the lowest house values and the least industry. The very people who most need help from being in the EU. A notable example is Cornwall where the vote was 56% for Leave even though the county has become dependent on EU funding to provide jobs. The head of Cornwall County Council issued a warning to the UK government yesterday saying that there will be an urgent need to provide funding to replace that which will be lost due to leaving the EU.

David Blunkett this morning said that although we keep harping on about immigration the real issue is that people voted anti-establishment and anti-globalisation. He has just returned from the US and said it was the same there - a shift against the establishment and towards isolation.

Spain votes in a general election tomorrow and could see a shift towards extremism but in their case to the left (Podemos).

[Pluggy]

I think we would have done better getting out of bed with America rather than getting out of bed with Europe.......

[Tizer]

Vladimir Putin is jubilant because he believes Britain was the driver behind the EU sanctions against Russia over their invasion of Ukraine. He now sees it will be easier to get the EU sanctions rescinded and that will boost his reputation with Russians. Britains' exit from the EU will make Russia stronger and even more belligerent. I'm glad I don't live in one of the East European EU states. Guess what...Brexit will encourage Russia to make moves against those East European EU states with the result that East Europeans will start moving west. Those who wanted less immigration in the UK might well see more of it.

[Tripps]

Well - we said it would be interesting.
The idea that Cameron can remain in post until October is ridiculous. If he resigns - he should go now. I note there is since 2015 no Deputy Prime Minister.
That's a shame he/she could have filled the gap.

I noticed earlier this week, that odds against a 2016 election were 10/1. It's now down to 5/2. I'm not sure an election would clarify things though, and I've certainly had enough of political campaigns.

Here's Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon. It's very brief isn't it, for a document of such importance? Nothing in it to say when the process should start.

I think I'll take a look at Article 49 now.

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

Here's Article 49. Looks like it's a 'back to square 1' situation - and it needs all the other remaining member states to agree. We'd be in the queue with Turkey.

Article 49
Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall be notified of this application. The applicant State shall address its application to the Council, which shall act unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the assent of the European Parliament, which shall act by an absolute majority of its component members. The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded, which such admission entails, shall be the subject of an agreement between the Member States and the applicant State. This agreement shall be submitted for ratification by all the contracting States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. The conditions of eligibility agreed upon by the European Council shall be taken into account.

[Whyperion]

Was the Referendum Binding on Parliament / HM Government / Binding on New Govt if New Election in 2016?

Given we could be out of Europe remember most Trains in UK run by Spanish/German/French/Dutch state railways , likewise they have investments in major bus companies too. The Leccy comes as much from France State Owned , (and funded for new by the Chinese), the Steel industry has gone, the car making generally in non-uk (German!) hands, the Coal from Poland (or Brazil?), The Gas , from Russia/ Ukraine. And, given the statements from European Leaders & local populations, are they really going to be in the market for Anything British. Scotland had better be quick leaving the Union, they might get a re-invented manufacturing economy and boom town Irvine and Livingstone ! So for England , probably no more jobs for British Workers, just less EE workers coming here to take what there were (and presumably paid tax to UK Govt).
EU will re-shape and will need to integrate more if it is not to Split from changes in France/Spain/Denmark possibly.

We're all moving round to Pluggy's when it gets chilly in 2008 !

Art 49 if we go back in, we have to take the euro (Article 2 ?)

[Tizer]

One of the first things Mrs Tiz said when she heard the referendum result was "What will this mean for Hinckley C?" EDF is owned by the French government, of course. There could also be some consequences for our supplies of gas from and through Europe.

There's a call for a second referendum... BBC
and the web page is here... Petition

[Tripps]

"Art 49 if we go back in, we have to take the euro (Article 2 ?)"


Article 2 doesn't seem to mention the Euro -

Article 2
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

[Pluggy]

With the EU, Germany and France playing hardball and our mighty politicians playing 'not me guv' when it comes to doing the deed, I'm regretting voting to leave.

Now we have this : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36629300

Yep, you've screwed the economy, now don't expect anything of the main reason for voting leave in the first place.

[PanBiker]

Over in Facebook land I have been having a debate with a Brexiter who told me to stop whingeing and move on. I took her to task for her comment that "over 50% of the UK citizenship voted to leave the EU". I pointed out that 52% of the electorate actually equates to no more than 26% of the population of the UK. Turned around of course it means that 74% of the population had no say at all in the decision to leave.

With only a 4% margin which boils down to just over 1 million votes from the potential total registered electorate of 45.5 million and you can see why some are asking for a re-run, particularly as the 16 and 17 year old's were not allowed to vote as they were in the Scottish Independence vote. You would have thought this extension for a referendum of this magnitude would have been allowed. After all it is the youngest in our society that will have to pay the most when it all goes belly up.

[Pluggy]

Arguing politics on Facebook has to be right up there with banging your head against the wall......

[PanBiker]

Could be, but not if you stick to the facts and have knowledge of what you are talking about. Unfortunately a lot of the posters in FB land only see black and white in any debate. I can't see anything wrong with trying to introduce an informed discussion. I don't do abuse and never rise to the outright stupid.

The rerun petition has got to well over 2 million signatures now. I have signed it myself, it's not being a bad loser but running the statistics shows it as not a big enough mandate for such an important issue. Turnout was bad considering the magnitude of the question and I am firmly in the belief that the 16 and 17 year old's should have had the vote. We tend to forget that they all cover politics at school now so are ideal candidates to be engaged early if given the opportunity.

[Big Kev]

Has there been an official announcement we are actually leaving?

[PanBiker]

It has yet to pass through both houses, at the moment it is just the result of a ballot and not legally binding. Either chamber could chuck it out, the majority of MP's and Lords were in the remain camp. Sad thing is a lot of the Brexiters are now saying they used their vote as a protest and did not think they would trigger an exit!

[Big Kev]

It has yet to pass through both houses, at the moment it is just the result of a ballot and not legally binding. Either chamber could chuck it out, the majority of MP's and Lords were in the remain camp. Sad thing is a lot of the Brexiters are now saying they used their vote as a protest and did not think they would trigger an exit!

I've just seen the BBC news report from Sheffield where they asked the Leave voter if he regretted his choice, it would appear he did...

[Whyperion]

It was said (probably somewhere here) that asking a single duel choice question when there were clearly multiple issues involved (in cause, and consequence), was a rather
stupid thing in the first place.

If Scotland definately state they will seek to leave the Union (of UK) , this could give Tories enough wiggle room that (A) they promised Scotland in UK would be Scotland in EU and (B) that the Union of E&W with Scotland is more important the GB leaving Europe. EU President and the For Secs of EU might not like the delay in UK making its official mind up, but the rules don't seem to think of uncertainty and its impact on Euro economies as a whole, so tough.

On Immigration, for me , it was never about the numbers per se, but more that UK should have a more balanced world view not influenced unduly by the EU nations alone. The whole problem for me was the original terms of entry for the UK back in the 1970s, and that unless serious close integration (with a legal system I was not happy with), was the only logical next step for the EU nations, the whole edifice would fall apart ( following the serious fall-out from UK/USA led wars and destabilisation in the Middle East). Compounded by the Thatcher years of grinding down the working classes, and the Labour Years of either being too wagged by the union dog or persuing a too free and loose system on bankers and borrowing at wrong time of economic cycle the upshot after 45 wasted years is many areas that voted 'Leave' are stuffed for the foreseeable future anyway.

Corbyn speaks many truths, but I think his lacklustre performance comes from the realisation that he cannot get enough Labour support across all of UK to get a parliamentary majority that does not depend on some kind of working agreement with Scots, Welsh Nationalists or the NI parties.

I Suppose HM Queen and all the others could abdicate in quick succession and really stuff Gove (unlikely really but I would like to see it !) Is the only way to get out of
problems, on a local level, is the making of partnerships between voluntary, faith and such local govt to make megre resources go further, Or, if Johnson , Gove and Grayling really do end up in charge will anyone give a stuff about building a Britain just for them?

[chinatyke]

Could be, but not if you stick to the facts and have knowledge of what you are talking about. Unfortunately a lot of the posters in FB land only see black and white in any debate. I can't see anything wrong with trying to introduce an informed discussion. I don't do abuse and never rise to the outright stupid.

The rerun petition has got to well over 2 million signatures now. I have signed it myself, it's not being a bad loser but running the statistics shows it as not a big enough mandate for such an important issue. Turnout was bad considering the magnitude of the question and I am firmly in the belief that the 16 and 17 year old's should have had the vote. We tend to forget that they all cover politics at school now so are ideal candidates to be engaged early if given the opportunity.

What is the 're-run camp' suggesting, keep voting until they get the result they want? They lost - end of story.

Over in Facebook land I have been having a debate with a Brexiter who told me to stop whingeing and move on. I took her to task for her comment that "over 50% of the UK citizenship voted to leave the EU". I pointed out that 52% of the electorate actually equates to no more than 26% of the population of the UK. Turned around of course it means that 74% of the population had no say at all in the decision to leave.

You are massaging figures and ignoring the other 48% of the electorate that voted against Brexit. Knock that off your "74% of the population who had no say".

Sorry Ian, you need to accept the fact that the majority of voters didn't share your opinion. Don't be a bad loser.

[Stanley]

China, it is not a matter of being a 'sore loser'. This enormous decision was taken on an almost 50/50 vote and many who voted to leave are having second thoughts. Add to this that the whole basis of the vote was wrong and it has opened the door for full reign of racism and xenophobia. I said it was a mistake before the vote and say so now.
I see Jeremy Corbyn has sacked Hilary Benn. Good, he should have done this as soon as he took office. I said at the time that it would be better to assert his authority and have a 'night of the long knives' then instead of postponing what I see as inevitable. If this leads to a coup against him, so be it, he can't act decisively as Labour Leader if he has not got the support of the Shadow Cabinet.
I agree that the Brexiteers are now in a hole. They have triggered the landslide and now are faced with the task of dealing with the aftermath.
I agree with Tiz about the irony of the poorer leave voters being the ones who will pay the greatest price.
The thing that is pissing Europe off most is the fact that until a vote is taken in Parliament and the referendum vote ratified and translated into a formal request to the EU to leave, Brussels is powerless, once that request is made, the UK is powerless. Boris, Gove et al will postpone that as long as they can. In the interim, plenty of time for Scotland to take advantage, vote for independence and apply to remain in the EU. I think they are smart enough to have realised this.... Nicola will already have started the process of taking soundings to assess the likelihood of a leave vote. If it looks feasible they will go for it.
The faction we have not heard anything from up to now is the silent majority (and I believe it is a majority) of Tories who oppose leave, do not want Boris and actively hate Gove.... I suspect their voice and effect will soon be evident.
I forecast a blood bath....... We could be looking at the end of the Union, no more UK. The end of party politics as we know it and possibly the rise of some unpleasant factions. Then there is the fate of the 'economic miracle'..... The only certainty with that is that Ossie is a busted flush.....

[chinatyke]

...
I forecast a blood bath....... We could be looking at the end of the Union, no more UK. The end of party politics as we know it ...

Enoch Powell also said that in the 1960s.

Time to be proud of being English again, break out the Flag of England and take down the Union one. England will never be the same power it was in 1900 but times have changed and it can still be great.

It is nigh time the government changed radically, it seems scoring points against one another is more important than running the country. They need to get away from these adversarial tactics and learn how to co-operate and manage the country, which is what they are paid to do.

Personally I'd rather have the regime where I live than put up with those cretins you have in Westminster.

[Stanley]

That's good job China! Horses for courses. I am not considering migrating.....

[Julie in Norfolk]

Grrrrrr. Don't get me started on politics! Actually, don't get me started on politicians! I had better switch to a different topic.

[Whyperion]

how to co-operate and manage the country, which is what they are paid to do

I cannot recall them doing this for the last 40 years , little chance now (Well SNP & Labour is as about as close as one would get.

Maybe Ossie worked out his economic miracle wasn't working, and secretly hoped for an out - in all ways.

Did anyone in the Media ask Farage directly which specific EU regulation he would repeal because it was of no benefit to consumers ?

At least in a dictatorship one knows where one is, when promises and statements are made in democracy that are then ignored or not carried through , or interpreted differently that is when one gets annoyed. Anyone for North Korea?

[plaques]

A lot of noise is being made about Corbyn's lackluster referendum campaign. What did they expect him to do, tell lies? They now want a change in leadership to 'save our party', its sounds more like save our necks, "don't confuse the electorate by telling them the truth". In a similar vein we now hear that the money saved from exiting the EU was never really promised to go to the NHS. Also, far from stopping immigration it will continue as before but they hope to control it.
Reminds me of 'lies, damned lies and politicians.