POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 Nov 2019, 13:12

Money is cheap at the moment. It's what you do with it that matters. Infrastructure projects like house building, rail, water, etc are all investment and to carry out the plan will require a lot of manpower. What you get with this approach is massive cash injection (via wages and job creation) at the bottom. The folk earning the cash through their labour don't sit on it, they use it to better their circumstance and spend. All the cash percolates upwards through the economy and the banks get it eventually. It helps everyone in the tree on the way up, not rocket science sensible. Borrow the money now and invest at the bottom.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 Nov 2019, 13:48

One of Vox pop. comments about the manifesto is "how can we afford it? it will bankrupt the country". Just think a minute, over the past decade we have seen companies like Microsoft, Amazon. Facebook. make £billions and paying only a minimum of tax relative to what a fixed small business would pay. I've no problem with individual profiting from their Entrepreneurship but their current out-take is obscene, Nobody seems to be asking 'how can we afford it'? it will bankrupt the country. Lets get things into prospective.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 Nov 2019, 14:32

We got the NHS, social welfare and thousands of council houses when we were already bankrupt by the war effort.

I think I have related the story before that my dad was scooped up in 1939 for six years in the Army so didn't have a trade when he was demobbed other than combat training in how to kill people in various ways and how to handle massive amounts of ordnance. Not much use in civvy street.

He enrolled on a government training scheme introduced by the Labour government. It lasted three years and trained thousands of men into the building and allied trades. He was picked up every morning at 6.30am and taken to Keighley from Barlick. He was in a 6 man team led by skilled men in various aspects of the trade. They did three days of practical work on site and two days in a site hut being taught building theory, how to plan and turn plans into reality, rules, regulations etc. Each allied trade had it's own hut on site, Building, Plumbing, Electricians. Over the three years of training and practical work the teams built the Brackenbank council estate in Keighley. My dad came out as a skilled bricklayer, plasterer, builder and roofer. The government trained thousands of ex servicemen on similar schemes into many trades up and down the country. He was paid labourers rates initially but his wage went up as his skills increased.

He got a job in his elder brothers building firm, bought shares, became a partner in the firm and worked full time until he retired.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Pluggy » 22 Nov 2019, 16:09

The Labour manfesto gets my vote, if they only manage to deliver 10% of what they're promising, it would still get my vote. They are definitely over promising what they are going to do and playing down the changes to pay for it but thats the nature of the beast we call politics. We've f*cked the planet, Its only a matter of time that "Conservative" is seen for the folly it is. We need radical change. Brexit is a very minor sideshow, it doesn't matter any more. I considered Corbyn a wet unelectable fool but i can forgive that if it brings change, we need change.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 Nov 2019, 16:45

Pluggy wrote:
22 Nov 2019, 16:09
I considered Corbyn a wet unelectable fool
What does that make Boris?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Pluggy » 22 Nov 2019, 19:22

An Oaf ?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 Nov 2019, 20:11

Well I wouldn't disagree with that! :biggrin2: :extrawink:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 22 Nov 2019, 21:01

Well, that was a fail by Boris and Jo Swinson to a lesser degree. Nicola Sturgeon held her own although mainly about Scottish Independence. Jeremy got the best reception and answered the broadest range of questions.

1. JC
2. NS
3. JS
4. BJ
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 23 Nov 2019, 04:52

I avoided all politics yesterday, all I want to do is cast my vote and we all know where that is going and why.
On the general point made by Ian that we should invest at the bottom and start the Multiplier Effect, I have argued that since 2008. Stiglitz meant the same thing when he suggested helicopter cash, just drop it out, let the people pick it up and spend it. Derided of course but actually a very good idea. 'Trickle Down' which the Tories believe in doesn't work, the rich put excess funds in investment and don't inject it into the economy. 'A Rising Tide floats all boats' is the same theory beloved by the Chicago School of monetarists, equally wrong.
Here's something else that I have been banging on about for years, there is actually plenty of money. The problem is that the priorities for spending it are controlled by the people who already own capital and they keep it in house. That's how we get imbalance in reward, vanity schemes and waste. To go down that track of opposition usually raises the cry of 'Envy Politics' but it is noticeable by its absence at the moment. Possibly because all parties have realised that they need to expand the economy by really ditching the awful policy of Austerity, one of the biggest mistakes of the last ten years.
Note that nobody complained about Central Government control and the adoption of Keynesian Deficit Financed Spending during WW2. It wasn't until 1940 that the cry for 'Sound Money' was raised again when Labour came to power. The Establishment forecast disaster but that didn't come until they got control, deregulated the banks and triggered what eventually became the Credit Crisis. 75 years later they are still banging on about the fact they are the party of business and finance. The bald truth is that the Atlee government showed us what could be done with an economy that was bankrupt.
Sorry, I got carried away!
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 23 Nov 2019, 08:08

I too am avoiding all politics. Same old same old, you can predict what will be asked and what the answer will be. I shall even be changing a lifetime allegiance this time, ie a protest vote but also something I believe in very strongly I think. Is anyone talking reality? Yawn yawn
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 23 Nov 2019, 09:47

Like Sue and Stanley I didn't watch the `Strictly Bragging' politics show last night except for accidentally seeing a bit of Boris when we finished a recorded episode of the programme on James Cook & The Endeavour and switched back to live TV. It's just all immensely depressing and I can only see more trouble ahead. Sorry to be pessimistic but that's my assessment of the near future for the UK.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 23 Nov 2019, 10:30

Boris didn't do himself any favours when he was asked by a WASPI woman directly if he would help with their dilemma if elected. He gave an equivocal no chance response to the dismay of the audience. that could just have lost him 3.8 million votes, his response is all over social media. He did not defend his policy decisions very well at all with the typical bluff and bluster replies and attempts to avoid the questions put to him.

I know you will say that I would say this but contrasting him with Jeremy's performance it was a bit like chalk and cheese. Corbyn covered a whole range of questions and never lost his composition during his considered replies hence my rankings above.

Mind you, quite a few of you are not bothered so a bit of a pointless post.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 23 Nov 2019, 11:09

Thank you for inviting here this evening to discuss the current political situation. As many of you know I've always supported the fundamentals of firm money and balanced budgets that's why I have been 100% behind the current austerity packages. Our biggest mistake was too ease back too soon and relax the strings on earnings and benefits. We should now bite the bullet and grasp the nettle with both hands and carry on the good work with another ten years of austerity until the pips really do squeak. We've been fed with lies upon lies far to long. The other night one of those common workers let the cat out of the bag by saying he earned over £80.000 per year and then sighting doctors, accountants and other so called professions were exceeding this amount. No wonder our service industry is heading for the rocks, you can't get a decent nanny without offering a car and a credit card as a perk, disgusting I say. How can we sustain a vibrant economy when we let Johnny For guest workers come here work for three weeks and the soak the system for what its worth, tell me that eh. Some people haven't done a decent days work in all their lives. Hard work, they don't know what it is. I've seen these lower orders taking holidays abroad as if they have a god given right to be there, not only that but in restaurants with their kids dressed in designer jeans and trainers with these apple things taking selfies with no consideration of others wishing to dine in piece, things have gone too far, more austerity that would put them in their place. How our long suffering Queen puts up with it I'll never know, poor Prince Andrew being led astray with this Steinway chap. (whisper) well it sounds the same, piano, sounds the same, good one eh, No we need more austerity. I'll close now, must fly, a meeting with my accountant in the Cayman Islands. More austerity that's what we need.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 23 Nov 2019, 12:06

:laugh5: actually it should be :sad:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 23 Nov 2019, 22:16

Pluggy wrote:
22 Nov 2019, 16:09


Getting free of religion turned me left, I surprise myself sometimes.........
Oddly ? Having religion sends me left.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 23 Nov 2019, 22:39

PanBiker wrote:
22 Nov 2019, 10:03
One of the promises in the manifesto, to build 150,000 houses a year in the first 5 years of a Labour government has been getting a lot of flak 50's Super Mac and then Harold Wilson in the 60's built over 300,000 houses each year,
That works out at 30,000 housing starts shall we say per year, say 600 seats inc Scotland and NI and that becomes roughly 50 dwelling unit starts per constitency, not an undoable figure, but that is say 250 net new units by the end of 5 years. In reality they wont be in every seat, but Manchester drives on with large numbers of new flats and houses, (lets assume none are affordable and we have a real problem), London gets an ever increasing Thames Gateway and a couple of smatterings of new town expansion and a couple of garden cities in Oxfordshire mostly on old MOD land.
Reverting to the 50s and 60s much was built quick, of 'non-traditional' constuction (the biggest problem with that was the lack of good insulation), the demolition of too many traditional terrace properties and building in areas that did not have a sustainable workplace infrastructure - half way to the top of mountains in South Wales, Washington in Tyne and Wear and the extension in South Durham of additional housing, flats, now demolished, across East London (Dagenham, Barking, Bow , Poplar come to mind ). The point is the difficulty of quality , suitable location, and tenure, it is getting that sorted that will bring delay and make it difficult to get the required number of housing starts, there do remain, in my view, enough empty properties, in need of refurbishment, to adequately house every family on waiting lists if local authorities entered into the private and auction market, instead of selling off 'redundant' NHS and similar sites to the highest bidder. Of course I have not included housing losses from the likes of Heathrow and similar airport expansions.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 24 Nov 2019, 04:09

P, I like it as a spoof but as usual, too close to the truth of some attitudes to be funny. That sort of thinking exists and yes, occasionally we get flashes of it, remember Andrew Mitchell losing his rag with the bobbies guarding downing Street or the infamous "Calm down dear...."
I bit the bullet last night and watched Question time on catch up. I admit I was expecting 118 minutes of torture but as it turned out it was worth it, very informative and confirmed my previous assessments.
Corbyn's delivery reminded me of Philip Hammond, very clear, on top of his subject and eager to convey his view but it was a bit like a solicitor reading a will. However, he stood out head and shoulders above Johnson and Swinson.
Nicola Sturgeon did well and is the right stuff but she isn't interested in the post of PM. Admirably clear and cogent and laced with obvious sincerity. Corbyn could learn from her.
Swinson came across like a high school student speaking at a debating society and floundered when she encountered open hostility rooted in their time in coalition with the Tories. That opportunistic move to grab an illusion of political power was a massive mistake and it's obvious that the thinking voters haven't forgotten or forgiven.
Johnson tanked, to me he proved that he is a one trick pony, he is not familiar with his brief and relies on jolly hockey sticks slogans about 'fantastic futures' and waffling, bumbling incoherence when cornered. Noticeable how he diverted every attack on him by switching into lies about Labour.
On the whole worth watching even though I didn't actually get any new insights. However it confirmed my worst suspicions about the Tories and LibDems. Tiz is right, if the obvious truth doesn't prevail and overcome the monolithic lies we are in deep trouble.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 24 Nov 2019, 10:47

Talking of truth, here's another article from BBC's Reality Check correspondent, Chris Morris. Thank goodness we have someone like him to cut through the smoke and mirrors. This is the sort of information that somehow needs to be conveyed to all those who only get their information from the guy in the pub or on social media. How are they going to react if Brexit goes ahead but they then find nothing much will change for perhaps a year or more?
`General Election 2019: What does 'Get Brexit done' mean?' LINK

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 24 Nov 2019, 11:41

What on earth is going on. One Head to Head debate with Johnson and Corbyn in which even the right-wing media had to give to Corbyn and which pointed at Johnson as the most unreliable and least trusted of all the politicians would be enough to sink anybody's ratings. Followed by Labour's manifesto which also went down well with the populous compared with the Tory 'what we are not going to do' manifesto is like the song from 'A Yank in King Arthur's Court' We are busy doing nothing'...trying to find lots of things not to do'. (back to Trump?). And yet the opinion pols show that Johnson has increased his lead to 49%, Please Mr Goebbels will you tell me what's going on.
'

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 24 Nov 2019, 20:07

Couple of extra bits in the tory manifesto
Nursing Numbers - Nursing Training Grants are being reintroduced. Some 50,000 over existing NHS Nurses numbers should be in place eventually - mix of recruitment from overseas, new trained ones and retaining or re-hiring those that have left.
Climate Change The Tories' pledge to spend £2,860 per household on improving the energy efficiency of social housing would affect 2.2 million homes but there’s no mention of what would be done for those who own their home. - I dont know if the average tory manifesto writer has looked at what are presently built social houses. I am also not sure given past initiatives how many dwelling units have already been attended to and what effective backlog remains, and where !
Item not mentioned, looks like some tax inflows from fiscal drag - threasholds into upper levels of income tax have not been confirmed as increasing so a few quid into the treasury if they dont.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 25 Nov 2019, 06:55

Good link Tiz, I take a lot of notice of Chris Morris and you are right, if we could feed him direct into the heads of all voters we would get some sense.
In a way that would answer P's point. You are right P, on the evidence the result is a no-brainer and it isn't Johnson. It's the polls that are saying otherwise and it leads me to hope that as with May, they are giving false comfort to the Tories. If this isn't the case we are in deep do-do and there is no God.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 25 Nov 2019, 09:32

`Sir Tim Berners-Lee attacks Tories over misinformation' LINK
`The inventor of the World Wide Web has accused the Conservatives of spreading misinformation during the general election campaign. Sir Tim Berners-Lee described the renaming of a Tory Twitter account as a fact checking body as "impersonation". "That was really brazen," he told the BBC. "It was unbelievable they would do that." During a live TV leaders' debate on Tuesday the Tory press office account @CCHQ was rebranded "factcheckuk". The renaming remained for the duration of the hour-long debate between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. The Conservatives have said "no one will have been fooled" by the move. But Sir Tim said the renaming "was impersonation. Don't do that. Don't trust people who do that." '

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 25 Nov 2019, 13:34

From Ian's post, Second Hustings will be at St Johns Methodist Church on Albert Road, Colne on 3rd December again 6.30pm - 8.30pm. Candidates will answer questions pre-submitted by the public.
Anyone wishing to submit a question should contact Katie by email:
katie@buildingbridgespendle.org.uk
or by telephone: 01282 719303


For anyone living in Colne or for that matter trying to pass through it has to endure endless traffic congestion. Andrew Stephenson our current MP has made this a centre point in his election leaflets. Apparently having been instrumental in securing £300,000 towards a study we are now waiting for Mr Wilson of Highways England - Transport for the North (TfN) to issue his report in early 2020. If effect the subject has been closed down and kicked into the long grass.
To recap on the problem.
The M65 up to Junction 14, Colne, was completed in 1988, From this time Colne has become notorious for its traffic delays and often quoted as the most congested town in Lancashire. Although Lancashire County Council have made a number of improvements to the traffic flow, peek time flow on Albert Rd and North Valley Rd (6068) often drop to 10mph average and sometimes walking pace.
Also, there has been a number of by-pass proposals nearly all aimed at using the line of the old railway track from Vivary Way to Foulridge or Earby. All of which would enclose more green belt land for potential development. These plans have been rejected by the public not least for the reason that the majority of the congestion is caused by people trying to get into Colne and not through it.
Meanwhile the Council sought fit to sell of the proposed motorway line with the bizarre sight of it now ending in Boundary Mill's car park.
A part suggestion by TfN that an extension road would be downgraded and could somehow been taken through the South Valley (its original route) has been lampooned by Labour, The scene is now set for another 31 years of inaction. Something for our children's children to get their teeth into.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 26 Nov 2019, 03:45

Tiz.... I listened to Clever Cleverly on Today yesterday giving his opinion on factcheckUK. Of course he dismissed the idea that it was underhand saying that it was 'clearly Labelled' as Conservative HQ. People don't read the small print let alone interrogate the substance, they just grab the title and accept what is on the screen as gospel. Of course it was a dishonest attempt to promote dodgy stats and interpretations partially presented to put the Tories in the best light. Same as all their other 'interpretations' of 'the facts'. I'm glad Tim spoke out but who is listening to him? The principle being followed is quite obvious, throw crap into the debate and it muddies the waters in the Tory's favour. I'm pleased to say that I have detected very little of this from the Labour Party, I'm sure there will be some, they are not angels but it is nowhere near as egregious as factcheckUK.
P, how many Westminster MPs know where Colne is, let alone care about its traffic. They have bigger and more important fish to fry and Colne does not have a champion like Silverman or Prentice.
I shall not be attending the hustings but here is a suggestion for a question. Can Stephenson give us the comparative figures for Child Poverty and Infant Mortality in Nelson and Colne? (Some wards like Brierfield are amongst the worst in the country.) As a supplementary, does he know the latest figures for Food Bank use in the borough?
On another matter, I keep hearing bellicose voices talking about the importance of the UK having an 'Independent Option'. Who holds the codes necessary for this action? It's a totally US designed controlled system. Can we use it without consulting Trump?
The Chief Rabbi mounts an outspoken and vituperative attack on Corbyn and Labour. Regardless of whether he is right or not it is a mistake, and to be regretted, that he has been so outspoken. Unwittingly he has joined in the nasty tone of today's politics and as a religious leader this is a misuse of influence. I would remind him of Jimmy Reid's advice, "Beware of certitude".
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 26 Nov 2019, 09:47

Stanley wrote:
26 Nov 2019, 03:45
, how many Westminster MPs know where Colne is, let alone care about its traffic. They have bigger and more important fish to fry and Colne does not have a champion like Silverman or Prentice.


I shall not be attending the hustings but here is a suggestion for a question.
I don't know, Azhar is not doing bad, we have had John Mcdonnell in Barlick, Angela Rayner was in Pendle with Azhar last Saturday canvassing with him. Might be more to come. :extrawink:


Have you submitted your question for inclusion in the hustings?

We can't make the first one but will attend the second in Colne if events don't overtake me.

We are applying for postal votes, an insurance policy as my sister is gravely ill in hospital in the IOM and I may have to bob over at some point in the not too distant future if the warnings from the medics come to fruition.

We have applied for tickets for a JC rally in Leeds on Saturday.
Ian

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