POLITICS CORNER

User avatar
Sue
Senior Member
Posts: 3411
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 17:04
Location: Somewhere up norf!

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 20 Jun 2019, 06:26

I tend not to contribute to any political discussions as
a) its one of my rules not to talk politics as it can cause almighty rows and splits in families and friends
b) I don’t understand it all
c)i don’t follow it all and hence don’t understand it all
d ) i don’t like my opinion to be laughed at......I know you wouldn’t but some have.
e)I don’t like to stick my head above the parapet if you understand my meaning.
F) I don’t like confrontational situations and politics create these ...see (a)
G) politics is not logical its a play on emotions and on people which I don’t like. It upsets me, I like logic!

I have obviously not inherited this aspect of my great grandfather John Roberts Widdup, political activist of the SDF and Chairman of the Burnley Branch circa1895.

I have considered joining the party I support but do not want to get roped in to such things as pamphlet posting, canvassing, etc. I prefer to be a less active member. I do not wish to be put i to a confrontational position and as you all know I am pretty busy any way
If you keep searching you will find it

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 20 Jun 2019, 07:00

That's my political stance these days Sue. You can go to the river for a drink and not need to jump in!
I have R4 on but I couldn't tell you why.... It's certainly not doing me any good. I am listening to Amber Rudd saying the economy and investment is strong and now some failed candidate is telling us what a sound man Boris is and ducking all the important questions....
I tell you, it's compulsive masochism!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
plaques
Donor
Posts: 3899
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 20 Jun 2019, 08:58

Sue wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 06:26
G) politics is not logical its a play on emotions and on people which I don’t like. It upsets me, I like logic!
The logic in a lot of politics is often hidden from view with the emphasis being placed on emotions why else do the newspaper barons put so much effort in pumping out 'opinion' reviews rather than facts? For the average person politics is basically about aspirations. In most cases these are relatively simple in terms of a better standard of living for themselves and their children, for others its power and control. Past events have shown whatever these aspirations are they can easily get blown off course either by changes in Government or 'events' especially at an international level. Re: America V Iran. America V China. In some long term plans the outcome can be predicted, Marx finally rejected Communism because it could lead to dictatorship, Churchill backtracked on Capitalism seeing the hardship it caused. Similarly, the big worry with data mining is giving faceless people the power to influence opinion without the subject knowing what is going on. Predicting trends in human behavior has always been a big money spinner.
On Trump. He has now started his campaign trail 'Making America Great again'. Usually this involves in setting aside all previous promises and concentrating on what would get them elected again. Forget all 'special relationships' they will never happen, it will be America first, second and third.
Its said that Trump's intervention in British politics is unprecedented, actually it is not. in 1959 Supermac (Mcmillan) invited Eisenhower to a TV presentation extolling the virtues of closer nuclear cooperation with America and Europe. Not quite the 'in your face' Tweeting and support of individuals we are seeing but nevertheless overt American involvement in British politics.

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 20 Jun 2019, 09:31

Just when we thought yesterday that Corbyn had come off the fence to back a second referendum he dithers and says he wants to consult the unions first. Then 25 of his MPs write to `urge him not to go full Remain' because `another referendum would be "toxic" and empower the "populist right" in many Labour heartlands'. A strange argument, that we should allow Brexit to happen in order to avoid `empowering the populist right' - surely, if we let Brexit happen then we've handed power to the populist right.
Stanley wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 07:00
..and now some failed candidate is telling us what a sound man Boris is and ducking all the important questions....I tell you, it's compulsive masochism!
It was David Davis, you can tell that by his constant laughter. Brexit is just a joke as far as he is concerned. He and Boris will be the Laurel & Hardy of politics! :smile:

The Netherlands PM, Mark Rutte, on Today gave one of the most sensible views on what Brexit will mean for the UK that I've heard in a long time. He made our British Bulldog Brexiteers look like fools.

User avatar
Sue
Senior Member
Posts: 3411
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 17:04
Location: Somewhere up norf!

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 20 Jun 2019, 15:13

plaques wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 08:58
Sue wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 06:26
G) politics is not logical its a play on emotions and on people which I don’t like. It upsets me, I like logic!
The logic in a lot of politics is often hidden from view with the emphasis being placed on emotions why else do the newspaper barons put so much effort in pumping out 'opinion' reviews rather than facts? For the average person politics is basically about aspirations. In most cases these are relatively simple in terms of a better standard of living for themselves and their children, for others its power and control. Past events have shown whatever these aspirations are they can easily get blown off course either by changes in Government or 'events' especially at an international level. Re: America V Iran. America V China. In some long term plans the outcome can be predicted, Marx finally rejected Communism because it could lead to dictatorship, Churchill backtracked on Capitalism seeing the hardship it caused. Similarly, the big worry with data mining is giving faceless people the power to influence opinion without the subject knowing what is going on. Predicting trends in human behavior has always been a big money spinner.
On Trump. He has now started his campaign trail 'Making America Great again'. Usually this involves in setting aside all previous promises and concentrating on what would get them elected again. Forget all 'special relationships' they will never happen, it will be America first, second and third.
Its said that Trump's intervention in British politics is unprecedented, actually it is not. in 1959 Supermac (Mcmillan) invited Eisenhower to a TV presentation extolling the virtues of closer nuclear cooperation with America and Europe. Not quite the 'in your face' Tweeting and support of individuals we are seeing but nevertheless overt American involvement in British politics.
Exactly! A logical play on emotions, not my sort of game even if it is reality
If you keep searching you will find it

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 21 Jun 2019, 02:29

I agree with P as well Sue. Tiz, it was Mark Rutte I listened to as well and wasn't he good! (I got him confused with another Hollander Marc Ritte....)
America has always interfered with our politics and now is no different....
I despair of Labour's shilly-shallying.
And then there were two. Do you ever get the feeling you're watching a stitch-up? Now the blue rinse and pearls brigade and Colonel Blimps will decide who to give us. Isn't it a surreal farce...
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 21 Jun 2019, 09:12

Mark Carney was interviewed on Today by John Humphrys this morning. Here is part of a BBC report based on that interview:
`He [Carney] also stressed that in the event of a no-deal exit, the return of trade tariffs on goods shipped to the EU would be "automatic". This contradicts a claim from Mr Johnson that the UK could secure a 10-year standstill in current arrangements using an article of the EU's General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade known as "Gatt 24". "The Gatt rules are clear... Gatt 24 applies if you have a [withdrawal] agreement, not if you've decided not to have an agreement, or you have been unable to come to an agreement," Mr Carney said. "So... we should be clear that not having an agreement with the European Union would mean that there are tariffs, automatically, because the Europeans have to apply the same rules to us as they apply to everyone else." [Taken from here: LINK ]

What I find mind-boggling is that Boris Johnson (and all his supporters) should have known this for the last three years. The BBC's Reality Check team warned at the start of this Brexit pantomime that not having an agreement meant we'd still have tariffs. Either Boris et al haven't bothered to check the veracity of their claim or they're simply lying to us, either of which shows they're not fit for the job.

I now believe Matthew Parris was right when he wrote that the Tories are setting Boris up as fall guy to get them through this Brexit fiasco as fast as possible, no matter what the outcome may be. The Tory voters will simply laugh and shrug it off if Boris is shown to be lying and untrustworthy (`Well, we all know he's a cheeky chappie, don't we, so never mind'). However we end up, they can then blame Boris and throw him out in the aftermath.

User avatar
plaques
Donor
Posts: 3899
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 21 Jun 2019, 09:17

Stanley wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:29
Do you ever get the feeling you're watching a stitch-up?
There is some suggestion in the media that there has been some 'tactical' voting to eliminate Gove. I'm not a fan of Gove but he does seem to be aware that there are a lot of things within the current systems that need changing. Whether he would actually do anything about them is another matter. No doubt the last thing the Tory's want at the moment is someone popping up with ideas that would rock the boat. Better to have Gove in the background than an awkward No2. Conspiracy what conspiracy?

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 21 Jun 2019, 09:23

It would be more newsworthy if they told us there had been no tactical voting! :laugh5:

User avatar
Sue
Senior Member
Posts: 3411
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 17:04
Location: Somewhere up norf!

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 21 Jun 2019, 15:09

I now believe Matthew Parris was right when he wrote that the Tories are setting Boris up as fall guy to get them through this Brexit fiasco as fast as possible, no matter what the outcome may be. The Tory voters will simply laugh and shrug it off if Boris is shown to be lying and untrustworthy (`Well, we all know he's a cheeky chappie, don't we, so never mind'). However we end up, they can then blame Boris and throw him out in the aftermath.






I think you could be right. I think they did the same with Theresa May but it didn’t work out as expected. They all want some one to carry the can for the outcome whatever it is.
If you keep searching you will find it

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 Jun 2019, 03:15

I think you have all sussed them out. Of course tactics came into it.
Not only did Mark Carney blow Johnson out of the water and expose him but I heard one of his apparatchiks yesterday flatly refusing to address the question of tariffs and suggesting that Mark Carney et al could be wrong even when the BBC interviewer told him the BBC had checked for themselves and the information was accurate.
So the Bojo wagon rolls on but hit a bump in the road late last night with reports that sounds of a violent argument and Bojo's lady telling him to "Get off me and get out of my flat" were heard by neighbours in the early hours. The police say they checked and 'nobody was in any danger'...... So that's all right then.
What a surreal world they do live in!
Meanwhile more time is wasted and what looks like the inevitable catastrophe looms larger.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
plaques
Donor
Posts: 3899
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 22 Jun 2019, 07:27

Stanley wrote:
22 Jun 2019, 03:15
Bojo's lady telling him to "Get off me and get out of my flat"
Reminds me of ..Lloyd George Knew my Father. which was a alternative to 'Mother' to cover these slight indiscretions.
Sue wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 15:09
I now believe Matthew Parris was right when he wrote that the Tories are setting Boris up as fall guy to get them through this Brexit fiasco as fast as possible, no matter what the outcome may be.
I still like to believe that there are still a number of Tory MPs who are not looking to advance themselves and shudder at the thought of Boris becoming Prime Minister. It could just be that the real opposition will come from the rank and file members who think it is a buffoon too far. Wishful thinking it may be but 'I believe in Miracles'

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 22 Jun 2019, 08:12

I am sure you are right P. They can't all be bad surely....?
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 22 Jun 2019, 09:39

Stanley wrote:
22 Jun 2019, 08:12
..They can't all be bad surely....?
Unfortunately, those Tories are mostly no longer MPs. Ken Clarke is still there (or was the last time I looked) but he isn't sharp-suited enough to influence the mainline Tories.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 23 Jun 2019, 02:46

Amazing how reasonable Ken Clarke and Major sound these days....
I watched Bojo waffling at his first hustings when asked about the incident. He has cultivated incoherence to an art form. I thought May was bad enough with her character flaws but this man is going to exceed even her flaws. He makes Hunt look intelligent. We are doomed.....
The thing that strikes me about Johnson is that we have no clear statement of how he is going to keep his promises. Marc Rutte summed it up the other day when he said that he didn't buy the image of the UK sailing serenely on to a bright future on a calm sea. Exactly! And even at this late stage there is no clarity or strategy. The Tory voters appear to be fixated on Brexit and Eton!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
plaques
Donor
Posts: 3899
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 23 Jun 2019, 08:49

A few years ago Boris would have been making headlines in the 'News of the World' but however titillating and gossipy this event has been it may be perfectly acceptable in the circles he moves. Probably it will make no difference to the Tory voters. On Brexit, Its hard to imagine anyone concocting an advantageous trade deal when we have so little industry to do the trading. In essence we are back to the old arguments of European alliance or Atlantic (American) alliance. In the past we relied on the US for loans, bailouts, Trade, and military (nuclear) delivery systems to maintain our imaginary status in the world's ranking. With Trump in charge how special is our special relationship now?
Meanwhile the friction between America and Iran continues to escalate. Gradually moving through the 'Tit for Tat' stage with each phase gradually upping the anti. America doing their best to draw others into the conflict. Link. Ref:
'Christopher Krebs, the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, said "malicious cyberactivity" was being directed at US industries and government agencies by "Iranian regime actors and their proxies".'
By 'proxies' I think we can read Russia. Of course we live in an international world where a country can legitimately supply arms and know-how to others at a price. Remember the French 'Exocets that nearly won the Falkland's conflict for Argentina. Trump is playing a dangerous game that could bring everybody down with a big bang. He sees nuclear weapons as a means of winning not in their traditional role as a deterrent.

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 23 Jun 2019, 11:19

Articles in the Observer and Guardian are making more claims of links between Boris and the ultra-right-wing Steve Bannon.

The US says it has made a cyber attack on Iran's weapon systems.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 23 Jun 2019, 12:11

I've only just realised that Boris and Jeremy were never on stage together at the hustings...... Pity.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
PanBiker
Site Administrator
Site Administrator
Posts: 9600
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 13:07
Location: Barnoldswick - In the West Riding of Yorkshire, always was, always will be.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 23 Jun 2019, 12:32

Just came across this Tory Blog site. Looks like even the membership don't like the way this is panning out.

Conservative Home - Dates of the Hustings
Ian

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 23 Jun 2019, 15:59

I wonder how many times they'll have to tell Boris that he can't do the impossible?
`Liam Fox criticises Boris Johnson's Brexit plan' LINK
I suppose we already know he's a liar so it's likely he's aware that he can't use the GATT 24 but he simply expects people to believe him that we can. His supporters probably do believe him but rationale people don't. This is what we might call a `Trump situation'. :smile:

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 24 Jun 2019, 02:37

Would you let this man drink red wine on your sofa? Even the Shires must be starting to remember his history.. We look to the Opposition Parties..... Help!
In another part of the forest the secular opposition have won the re-run election by an even greater majority in Istanbul. This is good, the Islamic tendency is being driven back and Turkey moves closer to Europe.
Later, the scale of Erdogan's defeat becomes more apparent. The secular majority of 15,000 which Erdogan objected to has increased to 800,000. Very encouraging!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
plaques
Donor
Posts: 3899
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 24 Jun 2019, 07:39

I thought our 'special Relationship' with America was on the decline, Now I see, via the Sun.Iran. Jeremy Hunt considering to support Trump with military action in Iran. Quote: He said: “We will stand by the United States as our strongest ally but of course we have to consider any requests for military support on a case-by-case basis. This sounds to me we will do as we are told. Do we never learn? first Suez, Afghanistan, then Iraq, all total failures. Besides the human suffering they are financially bankrupting adventures. More loans, bailouts and austerity. Trump may be happy to take military action without going to the International Court of Justice but we would be very foolish to follow him without their approval. But once we are out of the EU we could have the 'choice' of doing what we are told. Good old Donald will look after us.

User avatar
Stanley
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 54268
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 25 Jun 2019, 04:13

I'm afraid you could be right P. I always thought that one of Harold Wilson's best decisions was to avoid Vietnam!
Have a look at THIS from the Guardian. My friend Paulette in St Louis sent it to me. Worth reading I think. She is convinced we are heading for Trump Mark II.
I see that ITV say they will have to cancel their proposed head to head of Jeremy and Bojo because Johnson has not responded to the invitation as yet. It begins to look as though Hunt is right and he is running scared of confrontation. I have yet to hear any concrete policies from either of them, probably because they are faced with an impossible task, isn't it time they admitted it?
Did you see Johnson's reaction when Laura Kuenssberg asked him how it was that a snapper just happened to be present when he had his al fresco tête a tête with Carrie even though he said he was not going to disclose private matters? (LINK) Now she too is being attacked by Johnson supporters who are sounding more and more agitated. This isn't going to go away.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

User avatar
plaques
Donor
Posts: 3899
Joined: 23 May 2013, 22:09

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 25 Jun 2019, 08:44

Stanley wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 04:13
I always thought that one of Harold Wilson's best decisions was to avoid Vietnam!
And so it was, but we were already bankrupt from the Korean war. Although he came under pressure from America to get involved our finances were in such a dire straits that it was totally impossible. As it was the dip in world trade because of Vietnam war nearly did for us.
On Johnson, Alistair Campbell was making the point that the main issue with Johnson is not his dalliances with his lady friend but the fact he is avoiding answering questions on how he proposes to handle the Brexit negotiations. In effect he has no plan and the little he does say is wrong. In total not fit to govern. I have said before that not all Tory's are so short sighted that Boris could be leading them into oblivion.

User avatar
Tizer
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 11676
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 19:46
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 25 Jun 2019, 09:09

Stanley wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 04:13
Did you see Johnson's reaction when Laura Kuenssberg asked him how it was that a snapper just happened to be present when he had his al fresco tête a tête with Carrie even though he said he was not going to disclose private matters?
The same photo has appeared on most of today's newspaper front pages but at the time I write no-one has come forward to say they took it - even though they could have made a lot of money out of selling it to the press. Which all goes to show it's probably Boris's own campaigners who took it. It could have set up by Carrie Symonds herself, she's been Tory Director of Communications in the past.

The Express is reporting that Rees-Mogg is leading a group of `angry Tory MPs' in accusing `a Left-wing hate mob' of trying to wreck Johnson's bid to be PM. It doesn't need a leftie hate mob, there's plenty of others out there including me who want to stop him being made PM! :smile:

Boris Johnson should read this: `An Open Letter to the 2020 Presidential Candidates: It’s Time to Tax Us More' LINK
[If an overlay comes up on that page asking you to subscribe just click the X in the top right corner to close it.]

Post Reply

Return to “Current Affairs & Comment”