POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 26 Jun 2019, 02:58

Johnson and the image.... I see Nick Ferrari went for his throat by accusing him of publishing an old pic from before his recent hair cut.....
Strange echoes of 'Tricky Dicky Nixon' .....
America and foreign wars.... Very complicated deep history here connected with American Imperialism which of course they have always denied. There is a school of thought which posits that even the crushing of the Indigenous Tribes and the Westwards Expansion in the 19th century by the Eastern States was imperialism. The twentieth century paranoia about Communism which has been so disastrous (how many wars did they 'win'?) was largely spurred on by the need for the US to keep a climate of fear going after WW2 to slow down the withdrawal of war bonds which would have crippled the treasury plus a secret intention to gain influence over the remains of foreign empires like ours. There is much deep history about Harry Hopkins and Roosevelt making sure that the UK was bankrupt after the war to aid this takeover which largely failed. Too complicated to go into here but worth bearing in mind whenever Trump raises the old battle cry about 'Making America Great Again!' This is part of a continuous thread going back to the War of Independence and the need to instil a concept of Nationhood in a totally alien immigrant population. Worth bearing in mind when attempting any analysis.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 26 Jun 2019, 09:11

Listening to Dominic Raab this morning using the threat of a Corbyn government to keep right-leaning and moderate supporters accepting the ERG's activities I realised how different it would be if Labour had a more widely acceptable leader.
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This is a useful report by the BBC's Katya Adler, illustrating how the Brexiteers are trying to `lead us up the garden path':
`Why EU is unfazed by no-deal Brexit threats' LINK

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 26 Jun 2019, 11:58

Tizer wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 09:11
Listening to Dominic Raab this morning using the threat of a Corbyn government to keep right-leaning and moderate supporters accepting the ERG's activities I realised how different it would be if Labour had a more widely acceptable leader.
In my opinion not one iota. Corbyn may not be everybody's image of what a leader should look like or sound like. The real target of the Tory's is Socialism. Ever since Mrs Thatcher, The Iron Lady, they have been chipping away at anything that smells of Socialism. Every cut back or 'initiative', or private market force, 'Care in the Community' springs to mind, is aimed at removing anything that benefits the poor, you can now include some of the working population in the category, and handing the savings to the richest 10%. One of the underlying reasons for the rush to get out of the EU is that they still have a large element of Socialism in their rules. Working hours and Health and Safety being the most visible.
Mrs Thatcher was very good at picking her enemies, Arthur Scargill rather than the working miners. Similarly, we now have Corbyn rather than Socialists assisting the poor. Dictator Raab is just trying to emulate Mrs Thatcher taking the hardest possible line against Socialism.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 26 Jun 2019, 12:56

plaques wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 11:58
One of the underlying reasons for the rush to get out of the EU
Some rush - three years and counting . . . :smile:

She's flying to Tokyo this afternoon to represent us at the latest G20 meeting. Lame ducks can fly it seems. I think in her mind, she thinks she will continue in office for ever.

The new leader of the Conservatives and hence Prime Minister, we are told, will be announced on Tues 23 July. She will however do a 'farewell' PMQ's the next day. Does that mean that for the overlap period we will in fact have two PM's?

I think the Pope set the precedent a few years ago. :laugh5:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 26 Jun 2019, 13:01

You have hit the nail on the head there P. Here is the definition of what most socialists believe and try to attain to:

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Or as the original ILP mantra would say, "No Weal Save Common Weal"

Here is what the Tories panic about:

(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 26 Jun 2019, 14:20

But that's exactly what I meant, Corbyn is the bogeyman the ERG want so they can frighten the more moderate Tories into accepting Boris and a No Deal Brexit to keep the bogeyman away.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 26 Jun 2019, 17:48

The European Research Group (ERG) is a research group within the Parliamentary Conservative Party that provides research and co-ordinates activity – such as public letters on Brexit, and informal organisation – for eurosceptic Conservative MPs. In January 2018, Jacob Rees-Mogg became the Chair of the ERG.

Are you sure its not Jacob Rees-Mog that's frightening the Tory's? I suspect today's youth cringes every time he opens his mouth. The rightwing media tried to portray Corbyn as a special needs character during the last general election and failed miserably. I can understand the 'moderate Tory's' , Oxymoron, realising that their party has moved so far to the right that they are no longer centralists and would like to move back into their comfort zone. But the truth is that any Labour leader with a hint of socialism will always be seen as a bogeyyman. The strange thing is that they have rejected the only man, Rory Stewart, who could really challenge Corbyn. So its back to the negative propaganda.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 27 Jun 2019, 02:38

I sympathise with Tiz but agree with P and Ian. It's socialism and its close cousin Democratic Socialism that are the perceived enemy as far as the majority of Tories are concerned, Corbyn is simply the easily targeted figurehead because he is so bad at explaining clearly and consistently what his aims are and controlling his Party. If they saw me reading the Communist Manifesto and learning as much as I can about Marx and his theories they would cry "Aha!! There you are! They are all Communists!!" In their minds this makes me equivalent to Stalin and Pol Pot which is risible. Remember Churchill comparing the 1945 Labour government to Gestapo?
Again P is I believe correct when he says that the reason for the rabid hatred of the EU is because on the whole they enact good, fair Social Democracy which is anathema if your real aim is to roll back the improvements the working classes have achieved in the last century and reinstate Laissez Faire for the capitalists. The start of this was Regan/Thatcher deregulation of financial systems and the welfare state to control the poor. When did you ever hear any Tory agree with Thomas Piketty and Joseph Stiglitz the modern advocates of equitable economic theory?
They know that Brexit would be an economic disaster but their calculation is that they have enough fat on their backs to survive and a little pain for the poor is a small cost to pay for what they see as freedom and that mythical beast 'sovereignty'. What they are blind to is that the types of policies the EU are pursuing is the quiet revision of Capitalist Theory which in the end is the only way we can avoid naked populism and the worst elements of ultra right wing dominance. Look at the consequences of Versailles and the rise of fascism in Europe and what that led to. Keynes was the early version of Piketty, he pointed out the economic consequences and was cast out into the wilderness.
I heard a 'moderate Tory' assuring an interviewer yesterday that there was a ground swell of more reasonable thought in the Tory Party and that both contenders for the leadership know this and that we shouldn't agonise so much because this would come to the fore and all would be well. I am afraid that I think he is deluded. We are looking at an attempt at a right wing coup that will damage 85% of the population. The only way out I can see is the forcing of a General Election and the crushing of the Right Wing, it has come to this......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 27 Jun 2019, 07:55

Not in the same camp as Peter Mandelson and his filthy rich I've no problem with people enjoying the fruits of their labour and living a lifestyle that was once considered middle class bourgeois. Tony Blair exploited this by moving New Labour into the Tory centre ground. Although many of these new bourgeoisie are sympathetic about the plight of the poor they are not inclined to part with their hard earned money in the form of taxes. I suppose its part of human nature that's exploited by the filthy rich. Unfortunately the middle class is now being eroded by technology and increased financial pressures. Monopoly interests, especially in land and house building, transport and utilities are pushing poorer paid workers to the limit. I personally don't think wholesale nationalisation is the answer but there are clear examples where the theory that the market can provide a cheaper and better services has totally failed. If it is cheaper for the taxpayer to renationalise rather than pay out increased subsidies to supplement dividends then that's the way to go. Perhaps when more of the middle classes have descended back to working class they may see the advantages of the socialist approach.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 27 Jun 2019, 11:15

Corbyn's socialist principles (if any) dont seem to align with EU Socialist Regulations, if they did he would have been a much stronger remainer and reformer of the EU. Can any Labour Administration form a Government in the UK , extremely unlike pre-brexit, a hung parliament post-brexit maybe.
Jeremy Hunt seems to think smaller businesses and entrepreneurs will lead us all forwards, ( maybe so in small steps but not enough to get quality, mass, well paid jobs to fund the public sector ). The Johnson supporting secretary to the treasury seems really bad with figures, now seems to be allowing post-austerity funding increases, and for the deficit to rise as long as debt as a proportion of GDP falls (which is a bit of uncertain objective to aim for )

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 28 Jun 2019, 03:12

"If it is cheaper for the taxpayer to renationalise rather than pay out increased subsidies to supplement dividends then that's the way to go"
Exactly P. That's my argument, not necessarily Nationalisation but some way of controlling the dividends and tax domicile of the operators. That would fulfil Nye's dictum on control of the commanding heights of the economy. At the moment UK PLC is being ripped off and the government, though aware of this, do nothing. Indeed I have no doubt some of them are in on the act. Rees Mogg and his hedge fund? Angela Leadsom and her connections to venture capital? (See PE ad infinitum....)
I look at the Williamson affair and wonder how Labour can be so inept, they have shot themselves in the foot again. I deplore his re-admission and can't understand how Labour can be so stupid! Just when we need strong sensible Opposition they do this.......
Meanwhile, despite the fact that all the leading economic commentators point out that the 'spending plans' of the two candidates are Pie in the Sky they both sail on making impossible promises and ignoring the facts of life. In real life the police would nick them for fraud....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 28 Jun 2019, 11:24

Boris is promising whatever he thinks will sway Tory supporters. David Whipp should have a go at him for bribing voters! :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2019, 03:40

See THIS BBC report of the reverse ferret that Labour is attempting after the uproar over the re-admission of Williamson. Keith Vaz, who evidently had the casting vote, has triggered this by saying that he voted for reinstatement because 'he thought that was what Jeremy wanted' and thinks that it should be re-examined. Note that this could mean he is admitted once again!
This sheds some unwanted light on how the Labour Rules system works, not on consideration of hard evidence but on on what the committee members think is politic. This strengthens the case for totally independent decision making bodies and I note that Charlie Falconer has said he has reconsidered his refusal to chair such a body and has put his name forward again. I think they should take him up on his offer. This horrible cock-up has done nothing for the Party in general or Corbyn in particular.
It strikes me that we never know all the facts and it may be that it is this sub-culture of obfuscation in these committees that has been driving Margaret Hodge to be so vocal in her criticisms. She has always struck me as being on the whole very objective and sensible.
Meanwhile Tweedledum and Tweedledee continue their fight for the top job. I see that the money is on there never being a face to face stand off between them in these sham 'hustings' and they have totally abandoned addressing the real world problems. Democracy?
Whoever gets the Leadership it is another poisoned chalice.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 29 Jun 2019, 07:22

Keith Vaz has a number of skeletons in his cupboard the last one being for Bullying. Vaz Was he just trying to ingratiate himself with Corbyn or was there something more Machiavellian in his actions?
Mrs May trips over to see Putin and puts the boot in about Salisbury. Is it a swan song to wrap up her failed Premiership, a touch of the Iron Lady, or a lurch to the rightwing to get Trump's blessing for when we crash out of the EU? Funny thing these politics.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2019, 07:40

You can say that again P. I had remembered his slight local difficulty....
This morning we have a new line of attack. Reports from the usual unnamed sources that the Civil Service (All of them?) regards Corbyn as physically and mentally compromised. Right........
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 29 Jun 2019, 10:12

Stanley, if you go out again today see if you can pick up a copy of The Times. Its journalists have spoken to many Labour people, shadow ministers and those around Corbyn, and there is a lot of concern about his health and ability. It isn't just civil service mandarins who are worried, it's lots of people close to the man too. In today's copy The Times has done a front page article, a two-page spread inside and it's Leader today, all on this topic. The journalists are told that Rebecca Long Bailey, Shadow Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, is being lined up to take over from Corbyn in coming months. We've now got two puppets being used to further other people's plans, Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn.

Another reason to stay in the EU - note that this deal took 20 years of talks...
`EU and Mercosur agree huge trade deal after 20-year talks' LINK
`The EU and South American economic bloc Mercosur have clinched a huge trade deal after 20 years of negotiations. EU Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker said it was the EU's biggest deal to date and, at a time of trade tensions between the US and China, showed that "we stand for rules-based trade". Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro said it was "historic" and "one of the most important trade deals of all time". Mercosur consists of Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay. Venezuela is also a member but it was suspended in 2016 for failing to meet the group's basic standards. The deal aims to cut or remove trade tariffs, making imported products cheaper for consumers while also boosting exports for companies on both sides. It is set to create a market for goods and services covering nearly 800 million consumers, making it the largest in the world in terms of population.'

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 29 Jun 2019, 17:49

The story also appears in the Express. Who would have thought that?
A reminder about the Times. 1981 to present – News UK (formerly News International, a wholly owned subsidiary of News Corp, run by Rupert Murdoch) No longer a broad sheet but a tabloid rag no better than any of the others. Murdock was savaged by Tom Watson on phone hacking. Fake news or sour grapes.
It isn't just civil service mandarins who are worried, Civil servants at this level are not allowed to comment their personal views, Corbyn has taken up the claim and is asking for an investigation. Counter Claim.
The journalists are told that Rebecca Long Bailey, Just over 3 weeks ago the Telegraph , another rightwing rag.floated the idea that she may one day take over from Corbyn.Bailey. . Pure speculation but now becoming something to stir up trouble.
We've now got two puppets being used to further other people's plans, Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. well at least you are half right with Boris Johnson.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 29 Jun 2019, 18:28

plaques wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 17:49
the Telegraph , another right wing rag.floated the idea that she may one day take over from Corbyn.
If only I had the energy to reply , and it wasn't Saturday night, - I'd say something along the lines of. . .


It was in the 'sketch' column rather than an editorial contribution. It's supposed to be amusing, and perhaps not to be taken too seriously. For humour it's hard to beat the Chris Williams hokey cokey ( out - in - out again) affair. Keith Vaz MP - too ill to be questioned about his own disciplinary procedure, bravely interrupts his medical treatment, and with no notice bravely attends the enquiry. Casts the required vote, seemingly having seen no evidence, thinking he was doing his leader's bidding, then changes his mind within twenty four hours, when many of the other Labour MP's raise a fuss.

Isn't it interesting how the same situation can look so different to different people. As it happens I think this is a deliberate attack from the evil Murdoch Empire on the Dear Leader. Good luck with the subsequent enquiry into it though.


But I can't be bothered. :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 30 Jun 2019, 02:13

Tiz, sorry, I don't think I'll bother. There are enough uncertainties at the moment without giving credence to what is at best unsubstantiated speculation.
I note that news is so thin the media are even speculating about why Hunt and Bojo are using separate helicopters....Had a long conversation with my old mate Steve yesterday about me re-reading Marx and the joys of the S17 course he taught at Lancaster on Inter War history. He is as frustrated as we are about Labour's lack-lustre performance but also asked the same question about the Corbyn health report, "Evidence?".
THIS is worth a read. Wiki article on Ioannis Georgiou "Yanis" Varoufakis.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 30 Jun 2019, 08:27

Oh well, if Labour supporters want to bury their heads in the sand then so be it. Don't say I didn't warn you all. (Cries of `You'll be sorry!, then disappears over the horizon. :extrawink: )

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 30 Jun 2019, 08:32

Regarding JC's fitness, they caught up with him on the news the other night for a comment, he looked fine to me and fully in charge of his faculties. How old is Donald Trump who is seeking another go.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 30 Jun 2019, 11:41

In Roy Hattersley's book he mentions that Neil Kinnock received an unwarranted amount of negative publicity the worst that any leader up to that time had ever to endure, much of it outright lies which by the time the were proved to be false the caravan had moved on but the mud had stuck. The same thing is happening with Corbyn. Lies damned lies and rightwing media.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 30 Jun 2019, 21:10

I heard a chap on Talk Radio in the car this afternoon, (Not sure who he was but he seemed to know what he was talking about) who speculated that if sufficient MP's resigned the whip in protest, (and this was quite possible) - as being unable to serve in a Boris Johnson led party, then Mrs May could say that she was unable to go to the Queen, and recommend that Boris forms a Government.

He implied that being the leader of the Conservative Party did not necessarily mean you were automatically the Prime Minister. I have thought for some time that the fact that she didn't hand over to her deputy pro tem, when she finally quit the leadership, meant she had some such scheme in mind to enable her to cling on.

Some one tell me that's nonsense. . . .please :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 01 Jul 2019, 01:47

Dead Ringers think that is what she is doing.....
Tiz, I haven't got my head in the sand. I'm just questioning the source. As Ian says, he looks OK to me!
I heard a commentator yesterday saying that Spreadsheet Phil must be livid as he watches both candidates spending his hard earned war chest and more. I doubt if this is correct. Phil is enough of a politician to understand that in the reshuffle that will certainly follow the Leadership Election in which the winner will reward his supporters (the deals will already be in place) and one of the prizes will certainly be the post of Chancellor. That being the case he will have no control, only opinions and they won't count for anything. He may well reflect that the new government is going to make all the old mistakes....
Of course there is the attractive thought that there might be a different government in charge but as things stand at the moment I can't see that. Let's put it this way, that would surprise me more than anything else! I think it's a tragedy that a government like the present one can attempt to bury itself but could quite easily emerge from their self-dug grave like the living dead. Don't discount that happening.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 01 Jul 2019, 12:08

As Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt come head to head on the selection of a new party leader I can imagine them offering up their main strong points CV's something on the lines....
Boris Johnson. mumble mumble " We all know that the Brexit process has descended into a fiasco so in that respect I'm totally qualified to make this the most chaotic fiasco that the country has ever seen. My whole life has been devoted to fiasco management. Even my private life is in chaos and I can assure you that I won't let you down".
Jeremy Hunt flat lining. "Its all very well talking of a 'big bang' fiasco but my proposal will see that it becomes a continuous process which will last for the full term of the parliament. By breaking it down to mini fiascos its total affect will be hidden much like my NHS reforms. I can assure you that at the end of the process the UK will be totally owned by foreigners making subsequent decisions about trade and immigration obsolete".

Any relationship to real life is totally co-incidental.

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