FORGOTTEN CORNERS

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Whyperion » 16 Jun 2020, 08:29

Defensive Ditches ? are not some of the earthworks more than that, places more for retaining and holding cattle or sheep for example ?

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 17 Jun 2020, 03:47

Ditches, you pays your money and takes your choice.

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The place where the stone trough for Lister Well used to be. I did this pic in 2002 and the handsome stone trough that used to be here had gone. At that time a lot of stone troughs were being stolen, they were valuable items.

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Later Elise posted this pic, she had found it. The landowner, fearing a theft had moved it to his garden, I can't really blame him.
The water from Lister well originates in the copse in the distance on the top pic and last time I went up there was still being used to supply old bath tubs on the top side of the lane to water stock.

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In 2004 this was what remained in the field.
Very few people seeing this would realise that Lister Well was famous and was widely regarded a century ago as a well that had healing properties, a bottle of water from it would be good for almost any ailment. Nobody can say with certainty how these folk memories originate but from the references I have found it was regarded as an important Holy Well, a belief that must go back to Pagan times when all springs were regarded as sacred, they were so mysterious, Mother Earth giving us the means to support life.
As for the name 'Lister' I never bottomed that one apart from getting clues that the Lister family at one point controlled the land on the moor and that's the most likely reason why it was named after them.
So a nondescript collection of old cast iron bathtubs on a moor can tell a story. A proper forgotten corner.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by PanBiker » 17 Jun 2020, 09:09

I can remember drinking from that trough when I was a little lad and out walking with mum and dad. Also the ones at Hollins and Standridge. Always welcome when out on a Sunday ramble. :smile:
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Christian » 17 Jun 2020, 11:03

Stanley,

Would you like to me get some aerial images of Middop for you? Might aid you in your research.

C

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Whyperion » 17 Jun 2020, 11:11

Is there ever going to be a problem with standing water and midges/ malaria mosquitos in England . I have some plastic containers in the garden alas no space for lidded barrels for some summer water storage, but they do encourage the odd water nymphs that could hatch into anything. Generally in England we have flying birds that pick up some of the flying beasties so may not be as much of a potential problem, but with climate change it will need to be noted. the cat likes to drink the rainwater from one of the containers!

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 18 Jun 2020, 02:36

That's a kind offer Christian, thanks. However don't go out of your way to do it. I don't do a lot of research these days. Having said that I am poking into the Economy of Northern monasteries at the moment! Your drone pics are good, we can't have too many of them!

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Park Close quarry at Salterforth in 1948.

We are close to the rock in this area, that's why we are predominately a grass based farming economy. Apart from the bottoms of the valleys there isn't enough depth of soil for thriving arable. It's no surprise that Havre Park was the source of exports of grain from Barlick to Bolton Priory in medieval times, It is deep river bottom silt. Remember the problems Bracewell had with subsidence when building Wellhouse? 'Havre' is the archaic name for oats and a good clue.
However, there is one circumstance where being close to the rock is of benefit. When I was working at Marton dairy it was well recognised that the milk from Marton Scar farm at the top of the hill behind the dairy always had the best solids not fat figures of all the milk we took in. This was partly because they kept young cattle but the main reason was that they were close to the rock on the top of the hill and as Marton is North of the Craven Fault it is a limestone area.
If you ask anyone who has taken an interest in the subject they will tell you, quite correctly, that the main 19th century industry in Barlick was textiles. What is often forgotten is that following closely behind was quarrying. We had a lot of quarries and they employed many people and generated big exports.

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Rainhall rock was a limestone quarry.

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Thornton Rock was also a big limestone quarry.

When people talk about the canal they concentrate on the fact it enabled coal imports and spawned the steam textile industry. True. But what is often forgotten is that Lancashire was lime-poor and the canal enabled an export trade in lime for burning.

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The sandstone quarries were just as active. The rock in Salterforth and above at Tubber hill is high quality and apart from building stone (Barlick is largely built of stone from this hillside) we exported millions of setts for road building in Lancashire.
We import building materials today but then, stone and lime for mortar were readily available from our own resources. A forgotten corner.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 19 Jun 2020, 05:27

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The Parkinson Perfect Vise model 'F' 8A.

This morning's forgotten corner is a tool. We see an increasingly confusing range of new tools culminating in modern machining centres that do miraculous processes as if by magic but they all depend on one thing, accurately and efficiently gripping the work piece. The simple bench vise was the precursor of all these modern miracles.

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This always fascinated me. At some time someone mounted this old school blacksmith's vise on a tree by the side of Forty Steps and over the years the tree grew round it and the vise was abandoned. It's not there now, progress has eliminated it.
Over the years this type of vise was superseded by vises like the Parkinson above. I've always been of the opinion that Parkinson's at Oldham made the best vises I have ever used so I have two of them.
My late friend and colleague Graham Riley used to run his own business and he told me a story once about Parkinson's. He had bought a new vise just like the 8A above and it was defective so he took it back to the firm and was attended to by Mr Parkinson himself who agreed that the vice was defective and took him into the works to pick a new one. Graham told me that what really impressed him was when Mr Parkinson reached under the coat of his business suit and pulled a 2ft steel rule out of a ruler pocket built into the trousers!
Now that is definitely both old school and a forgotten corner.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 20 Jun 2020, 03:48

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I got a surprise one day when my butcher gave me this perfect Moore and Wright 1/2" micrometer. Someone had given it to him and he had no use for it in his trade! It reminded me of a story I was once told about Johnny Pickles who was as I am sure you are aware an old school machinist. He was walking through the shop one day when he saw one of his men using a micrometer. He must have been in a playful mood because he said "Eeh, is that one of them new fangled micrometers lad?" The worker said "Yes Mr Pickles but don't worry I'll finish off with the callipers!"
Johnny knew all about micrometers of course but when he learned his trade they were not common, parts were made to fit another part using callipers.
Funnily enough, when I am making a chuck back which has to be a perfect fit with the chuck I always use callipers for comparison and go on feel. I get a better fit that way. In today's world where accurate measurement is taken for granted that's a forgotten corner but is still useful in old-fashioned fitting.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 21 Jun 2020, 04:07

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Anybody who takes an interest in the history of Barlick will have tripped over this bloke, William 'Billycock' Bracewell. I have written a lot about him and it's all on the site if you are interested. Just put 'Billycock' in the site search engine and you'll come up with over 180 entries and if you use 'Bracewell' you'll be swamped!
For an entirely Unconnected reason the subject of wills is on my mind and it reminded me of Billycock's will which is also on the site. I suspect that most people ignore dry legal documents when they are interested in something, they tend to go for the skulduggery. I'll bump his will, take the time to read it and you'll get a very good idea of the sort of man you are dealing with. It's long and complicated and is quite obviously the will of a power freak. In it he attempts to dictate what happens in the family from beyond the grave with detailed instructions about legacies. A fascinating document if you have read any of the other stuff.
Ironically, none of what he attempted to impose on the family worked because after he was taken to the cleaners by his daughter in law Elizabeth he was stony broke and there was no estate to administer. There's a lesson there somewhere as well as a forgotten corner!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 22 Jun 2020, 05:16

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This image of Butts Mill in 1890 has a feature that was common in the early mills, a stone belfry on the gable which originally had a bell that was used to summon the workers in the morning. In those days very few households had a clock and if they had there was no easy way of checking that it told the right time. Clough had one as well.
By 1890 the bell had been superseded by the steam whistle or 'donkey' as many called it. I can remember during the war being taken out at midnight on New Year's Eve to hear all the mill and steam locomotive whistles sounding to mark the change of year.
I once heard a story about the 'donkey' at Long Ing Shed. The firebeater had gone in the day before restart to fill the boiler and start a low fire to gradually heat the boiler and raise steam. He gave the boiler a good charge of coal, locked the engine house door and went home. Unknown to him the cock on the pipe to the whistle had dropped as tit became cool and the plug came loose. As the steam rose the whistle started moaning and at first people weren't sure what it was. As the pressure got higher so did the volume of sound and unfortunately they couldn't find the firebeater who had the key. In the end one of the mill directors had to be rooted out to unlock the boiler house so the cock could be closed.
I've come across one more instance where a steam whistle was used in mills but as far as I know, only in the multi storey spinning mills with large rope races. They had a whistle in the rope race and it was sounded before the engine started to warn anyone in the race and also in the mill, that the shafting was about to start turning and would become dangerous.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 23 Jun 2020, 04:07

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The moulding floor in a 19th century foundry.

Today's forgotten corner is a bit technical, sorry about that. Casting molten metal in a mould to get the shape of an artefact in hard metal is a very ancient skill and started in the Bronze age. It is still used today but the peak of the trade was in the late 19th century when casting iron was the go-to technique for producing almost everything. It is still important today.
In days gone by if you went to any foundry you would find the surrounding land littered by what looked like scrap castings rusting away quietly. Not so, this was an important part of the process. When you pour molten metal into a complicated mould it starts to freeze and in a large casting the heaviest parts are still molten in the centre when the outside has hardened. As the metal freezes it contracts and the consequence is that as the skin is hard stresses build up in the interior as the casting cools.
These stresses gradually partially relieve themselves over time and that's what the rusty castings were, they were left out in the weather to gradually improve themselves. Large castings were often rough machined before being exposed for as long as six months. Even so, when the castings were eventually finished machined, residual stresses were relieved and the part distorted very slightly as metal was removed. I have observed this when reconditioning old steam valves, even 100 year old castings distorted very slightly and this is important when aiming for perfect accuracy where a tenth of a thousandth of an inch matters.
So why is this a forgotten corner? I watch a lot of videos of machining processes on Youtube and what strikes me is that I have never heard anyone mention this tendency to distort as a casting is machined. I note this particularly when castings are being machined to make straight edges and a tenth of a thou matters. Have some modern machinists forgotten about internal stresses?
Not something that has attracted most people's attention but there are people like me who remember these things!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 24 Jun 2020, 05:30

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The first forgotten corner is something that came to mind this morning. Should I inflict my shorts on Barlick? On the whole, I think not, better they should remain a forgotten corner and a reminder of times past.
In a more serious vein....

Here's an excerpt from me memoirs.
Work and shop and a never diminishing overdraft rolled on and suddenly it was summer again. When we had the accounts done in Spring of 1959 father was so depressed by the results that he asked me if I would take the debts over. I did, and became proud owner of a grocery business with an overdraft bigger than the value of the asset! Father brightened up considerably because I decided he should have a wage! I also talked to him about getting out of the shop and we decided we’d look for a little farm. We had a stroke of luck immediately because a farm came up for sale in Barnoldswick.

Hey Farm, behind the Greyhound pub comprised seven acres of good grazing and a lovely 17th. Century four bedroomed house with a workshop on the end and a separate barn. We went to look at it and found it could be bought for £2000 plus £200 in goings. I went to see Mr Batkin at Burnley and he agreed to lend me the money on condition we sold the shop. So we went ahead, put the shop up for sale and bought Hey Farm off Grant Brown, I found out later that his byname was ‘Sailor’ because he had spent a lot of time at sea. Father and I agreed that if the sale of the shop and stock wiped out the overdraft it would be OK so we advertised it at a reasonable price and sold it very quickly. I think there was a small surplus but it wasn’t much. We sold the van and put the proceeds and the surplus into a second-hand short wheelbase petrol Land Rover. Mother and father were in pig heaven, they had got all the weight off their backs and father could keep some animals as a hobby. He didn’t see it as a hobby, he thought he was farming properly but in effect he had got his retirement, he’d lost his mates but he had his garden and the stock as a bonus. He was as happy as I ever saw him and it was very gratifying. Mother had less work as well. We couldn’t make money from the farm but I was earning so we were all right. Father had his state pension and the GGA pension so he was better off as regards cash than he had been at Sough. I had the responsibility of paying £15 a month to the bank out of a wage of £8-10-0 a week which wasn’t too bad. Leslie was still at home but left Ermysted’s Grammar School that summer and, armed with a reference from Les Greenwood, a local councillor, went and had a successful interview at Silentnight in Barnoldswick and started into life as a Trainee Manager.


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The farm in 1969, ten years after we moved in.

This piece isn't about me and the farm, it's about a way of life that has altered so much. Notice that on a wage of £8.50 a week I bought a good house and seven acres for £2,200. That in itself is a forgotten corner but there is another. My job, driving for Harrison Brothers was low paid, the loan repayments to the bank were £15 a month, almost half our total income. But, and it's a big but, my job was secure and there was plenty of driving work about, this gave me confidence and we simply crashed on managing our ingoings and outgoings and so we went on, never well off but never in trouble until eventually the farm was paid for and despite high interest rates and national economic problems we were doing very nicely thank you. This was mainly because I was for much of the time working in the dairy industry which was a 365 days a year essential job. Our case was not unique, many more were doing just as well. This is the forgotten corner, a good labour market, secure employment and a degree of certainty about the future, we were confident that the rising tide would mean that like us, our kids would do better than their parents.
All this is now a forgotten corner and was so even before the pandemic. The present situation makes things even worse, we could be reverting to 1930s levels of insecurity and want. We are being bombarded by optimistic forecasts of how things will improve as we 'bounce back' from the crisis but I have grave doubts, it all seems like whistling in the wind to me. I fear that for many there are tough times ahead. It was not much better before the onset of the virus. I have written many times that I feel sorry for young families today, any of them that read the above will hardly believe that it was possible. £2,200 wouldn't buy the windows for a house today!
So this is my forgotten corner and I can't believe that we have mismanaged the world so badly. In a nutshell, the rich have got richer and the poor made poorer and I see no prospects for any change in this downward spiral.
Sorry to be so pessimistic but that's how things look to me.....
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 24 Jun 2020, 08:56

Work is underway to put the roof on the new Masonic Lodge, on Skipton Road. The houses don't appear to have moved on much though, still not up to first floor yet.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Cathy » 24 Jun 2020, 09:22

Forget the shorts pic, it doesn’t bear commenting on, haha
But reading your reminiscing story, I can feel the relief by keeping things simple. (By today’s thinking)
Somehow and in different ways we have all made it thru to today. Today’s generation will, and the next generation will, have no fear. :smile:
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 25 Jun 2020, 03:11

Some will Cathy but there are many who are being damaged already by insecurity. Lack of schooling due to the pandemic is just one example. Think poverty, domestic violence and homelessness, all at higher levels than they were 50 years ago. We looked after our parents in old age, today the situation is reversed, hence the bank of dad. Not their fault, society has been so mismanaged that the money has been sucked out of the bottom and is concentrated at the top. Many years ago after spending twelve months studying the Inter War Years I was asked to boil it all down to one sentence. I did better than that, I boiled it down to three words; "distribution of wealth' and got the top mark.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by chinatyke » 25 Jun 2020, 07:04

Stanley wrote:
25 Jun 2020, 03:11
Think poverty, domestic violence and homelessness, all at higher levels than they were 50 years ago.
Is that true?

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 25 Jun 2020, 07:24

Yes.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Cathy » 25 Jun 2020, 08:54

I was thinking along financial lines Stanley. Most countries world wide are broke due to the pandemic, or very close to it. Like they keep telling us, we are all in this together.
Re your other points, yes it is also bringing out more of the worst in some people. 🙁
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Whyperion » 25 Jun 2020, 18:37

chinatyke wrote:
25 Jun 2020, 07:04
Stanley wrote:
25 Jun 2020, 03:11
Think poverty, domestic violence and homelessness, all at higher levels than they were 50 years ago.
Is that true?
So we are looking at 1970. A time when most MPs were either not born, or not aware of what was going on. Indeed why did Wilson lose the Election To Heath ( I have not looked up and cannot remember ). I recall things like decimalisation and the common market were on the near horizon, and inflation and the move away from standards and changes in consumer credit were occuring, along with Purchase Tax being replaced by the more regressive VAT. The world had carried the Paris student riots and the begining of the end of the vietnam war so socially by 1970 things were in a state of change. Students though still got full grants, free tuition fees and housing benefit. It was the time when council house building, aside from some final concreted towers and linked buildings were starting to run down, new towns were being promoted (The Corby Effect and Peterborough were to come a bit later) like Harlow, Bracknell, expansion of Northampton. Schools had taken the leaving age to 16 up from 15 with the last year of schooling starting to cover areas that previously had been really only covered at university level (and this would increase with A levels). The Technical Colleges were at their prime too. I was slightly involved with The London Embankment Mission in Waterloo, which had a ministry (well feed and a sunday afternoon sleep place) for the street homeless that congregated in that area, always old men, with a couple of old women, I think most had alcohol problems, others were ex mariners or armed forces that could not adapt to a life outside of 'regimentation', drug use had started to come in too. Crisis / Centrepoint and Shelter were formed after the Screening of Kathy Come Home, and Manchester was clearing the terraced streets in exchange for The Crescents. Central Wholesale Markets were being moved out to new out of central town locations in Manchester, London, and probably elsewhere and the corner shop was designed out of existance with the promotion of the in-town supermarket (outside Hypermarkets came about 1976 onwards). But Building Societies still meant that homes could be bought on a decent wage, and rents were still affordable. So 1970 to 1974 did the Conservative Govt destroy britain, did a relative downhill performance carry on ( just with shipbuilding large ships could not be built in the UK, and any that were were too costly), or did Trade Unions really take too much out of too small a pie ? Homelessness today falls into three piles - those with No Recourse to Public Funds (mostly immigrants of some kind). Those with substance abuse or mental issues making it difficult to live in four walls independently, and youth particulary where the family home has broken down, with pay and benefits rates that are lower for young people it is no way easy - but with Community Land Trusts and Partnerships there is some hope that land, and buildings, can be re-purposed for additional affordable occupation, The desmond heights of docklands wont do it, but , covid aside, I get the feeling that there is a mass movement building for better affordable accommodation for all groups.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 26 Jun 2020, 05:10

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40 years ago taking the rays and getting a tan was the bonus you got from being fortunate enough to be somewhere where there was sun, in this case Laguna Beach, LA, in 1981. Today this would be inviting skin cancer. My question is was it the absence of a hole in the ozone layer at the time or the genes I inherited from my possible Aborigine ancestor? Whatever, I seem to have been lucky and not had any ill effects. I am grateful for that and have a completely different attitude today, Farmer's Tan will do and Cod liver oil for the essential vitamins.
Looking back though that skin hue suited me I think. Those were the days but now a long forgotten corner.
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by chinatyke » 26 Jun 2020, 05:53

Laguna Beach, just south of where my youngest daughter now lives in Newport Beach. A beautiful place but I wouldn't swap her locations!

Thanks for the replies but things don't feel worse now than 50 years ago. Perhaps it is just my personal circumstances that make me feel that way. If they are worse today then it is a sad reflection on society.

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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Big Kev » 26 Jun 2020, 17:04

Big Kev wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 08:56
Work is underway to put the roof on the new Masonic Lodge, on Skipton Road. The houses don't appear to have moved on much though, still not up to first floor yet.

20200624_095206.jpg
Roof's on
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 28 Jun 2020, 03:39

China, things don't feel worse for me either, I am very happy but unfortunately people like you and me are the lucky ones. Far too many people, including many workers, are in poverty and at their wit's end. It will get worse, remember that the various 'holidays' on mortgages, rent, evictions and the like come to an end shortly and all the debts built up will become due. It's a hell of a mess.

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Gus posted this pic of Long Ing on the site. I think it must have been in the 50s. Barnsey shed and the cottages are still there as is the old hump backed canal bridge.

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I must have done this pic at about the same time. Barnsey and the old canal bridge still there but Silentnight have started demolishing the cottages and building the new frontage to Moss Shed before they moved in. Harold Duxbury once told me that Tom Clark bought Moss lock stock and barrel for £10,000 and I had that figure confirmed later from another source. You couldn't build a decent extension to a house for that sort of money now. Definitely a forgotten corner!
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Stanley » 29 Jun 2020, 04:16

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Bank Newton near Gargrave. One place that always felt like a forgotten corner. In many ways time stood still there. I used to pick the milk up there and so visited the area every day which almost made you an inhabitant, you were part of the scenery and accepted by the locals. It was full of interest, Newton Hall which was a very grand looking building.

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The canal and a set of locks and the people who lived there. Two things come to mind, Miles Taylor who farmed Newton Grange with his brother. When I first started picking their milk up I used to say 'Good Morning' to Miles every time I saw him and he never replied so after about a week I said "Bugger you then" as he walked away from me. He whipped round and I said "Well you heard that didn't you!". After that he used to go out of his way to greet me.
Just as you turned down to Newton Grange John ? and his father farmed at I think it was called Newton Hall Farm. John and his father were big men and very friendly. Both were into Cumberland Wresting and I think the father was once champion. I remember once all the talk was of John having an argument with the local police sergeant who had mistakenly accused John of being the owner of some cows that had strayed. They were on the canal bridge near the farm at the time and in the end John said "If tha doesn't stop talking about them beasts I'll pop thee in t'cut". The sergeant retreated. A forgotten corner.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net

"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!

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Wendyf
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Re: FORGOTTEN CORNERS

Post by Wendyf » 29 Jun 2020, 06:24

Were they Hewetsons at Newton Hall Farm Stanley? That's who farms there now, he is Chairman of Craven Cattle Mart.

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