WHITE ROSE BARLICK
- Stanley
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WHITE ROSE BARLICK
WHITE ROSE BARLICK
I see the hoary old subject of whether Barlick is white or red rose has raised its head again and there was discussion recently about Eric Pickles' initiative that the old county names like Cumberland, Huntingdonshire etc. should be used for 'non-official' purposes as they promote social cohesion. During this debate it transpired that the old shire names are still legal entities but superseded for administrative purposes by the new boundaries. I have always held the view that the old shire names couldn't be extinguished even if administrative boundaries were changed. It looks as though I might have been correct. It's worth remembering that the Post Office gave up the struggle with Barlick when they gave us a unique postcode and stated publicly that it didn't matter whether letters were addressed to Lancashire or Yorkshire. Remember also the matter of the county boundary signs which were uprooted after the administrative changes but are now back in their original locations. It is quite accurate to say that Barlick is still in Yorkshire! The county boundary sign with Lancashire has been reinstated on the far side of Hague whereas under the boundary changes it was just beyond Gill Brow. Remember how the lads kept on uprooting it and at one time 'Yorkshire' was painted in bold letters on the end of a building at Hague nearest to Foulridge?
The question we should address is does it matter? I think it does but for what may seem to many a strange reason. The fact that the old shire boundary is part of our local heritage is a given, I don't see how anyone can argue against that. However, if you really think about Barlick, one of the key characteristics of the town is that it has always been 'a place apart'. There's a small hamlet near Lanark which I used to visit regularly every Monday morning when I was a cattle wagon driver, they had a saying there, “Into Crawfordjohn, out of the world” and in terms of Lancashire and Yorkshire this applies to Barlick as well. We aren't on a main road, it has been said that if you find yourself in Barlick but didn't mean to go there you are lost! Think of the old saying, “Are you married or do you live in Barlick?” If you look at the old census records you'll find that a surprising number of households consisted of a man living with his 'niece' and a child. In those days if a man was in the Lancashire textile union and was found to have been bothering with a lass the union threw him out and a good ploy was to slip over the boundary to Barlick, join the Yorkshire union and carry on with life.
It's fact that we are still in West Yorkshire, it's also true to say that when it suited us, in matters of trade with Lancashire, we turned a blind eye to the white rose connection. Long may it continue!
Shire stone at Standing Stone Gate.
I see the hoary old subject of whether Barlick is white or red rose has raised its head again and there was discussion recently about Eric Pickles' initiative that the old county names like Cumberland, Huntingdonshire etc. should be used for 'non-official' purposes as they promote social cohesion. During this debate it transpired that the old shire names are still legal entities but superseded for administrative purposes by the new boundaries. I have always held the view that the old shire names couldn't be extinguished even if administrative boundaries were changed. It looks as though I might have been correct. It's worth remembering that the Post Office gave up the struggle with Barlick when they gave us a unique postcode and stated publicly that it didn't matter whether letters were addressed to Lancashire or Yorkshire. Remember also the matter of the county boundary signs which were uprooted after the administrative changes but are now back in their original locations. It is quite accurate to say that Barlick is still in Yorkshire! The county boundary sign with Lancashire has been reinstated on the far side of Hague whereas under the boundary changes it was just beyond Gill Brow. Remember how the lads kept on uprooting it and at one time 'Yorkshire' was painted in bold letters on the end of a building at Hague nearest to Foulridge?
The question we should address is does it matter? I think it does but for what may seem to many a strange reason. The fact that the old shire boundary is part of our local heritage is a given, I don't see how anyone can argue against that. However, if you really think about Barlick, one of the key characteristics of the town is that it has always been 'a place apart'. There's a small hamlet near Lanark which I used to visit regularly every Monday morning when I was a cattle wagon driver, they had a saying there, “Into Crawfordjohn, out of the world” and in terms of Lancashire and Yorkshire this applies to Barlick as well. We aren't on a main road, it has been said that if you find yourself in Barlick but didn't mean to go there you are lost! Think of the old saying, “Are you married or do you live in Barlick?” If you look at the old census records you'll find that a surprising number of households consisted of a man living with his 'niece' and a child. In those days if a man was in the Lancashire textile union and was found to have been bothering with a lass the union threw him out and a good ploy was to slip over the boundary to Barlick, join the Yorkshire union and carry on with life.
It's fact that we are still in West Yorkshire, it's also true to say that when it suited us, in matters of trade with Lancashire, we turned a blind eye to the white rose connection. Long may it continue!
Shire stone at Standing Stone Gate.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
- Stanley
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Enjoyed writing it, Lovely subject, individuals deciding for themselves!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
- PanBiker
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
I have always known where I am and if in Barlick that would be the same place I was born, in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Nolic's kinsmen decreed it so a long long time ago. Ted Heaths whims back in the early 70's so he could win the election mean nowt.
Ian
Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Thank goodness everything is back to 'as it should be'.
If I am ever lucky enough to own a fire surround/mantlepiece I am going to have a wooden or stone one with the Yorkshire Rose carved into the wood or stone on either side. So there!!
If I am ever lucky enough to own a fire surround/mantlepiece I am going to have a wooden or stone one with the Yorkshire Rose carved into the wood or stone on either side. So there!!
I know I'm in my own little world, but it's OK... they know me here.
Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Lines on maps still fail to inspire me.
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
If Kelbrook had been in Lancashire in 1949 I would only have had 4 miles to go to Colne Grammar but as it was in Yorkshire I had 12 miles (a bus & train journey twice a day) to go to SGHS. Still I reckon I went to the best school!!
Say only a little but say it well.
- Stanley
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Moh, you'll no doubt remember we had a problem with the Skipton MP as well. Burnaby Drayson, held the seat for 34 years and hardly ever spoke in the house. Possibly one of the worst MPs ever! The boundary change meant that at last my vote could count!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
just thought someone may enjoy
Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Thanks Bodger, that was funny.
I know I'm in my own little world, but it's OK... they know me here.
- Stanley
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
I agree with you Cathy. I watched it and yes, despite the fact it's actually based on bigotry, it's funny, probably because we all know that it is friendly rivalry. Thanks Bodge....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
As a youngster my parents always used to say. "Barlick, That's where they live or't brush" Being from Burnley I'm not sure whether this is a Lancashire saying or a Yorkshire one. I'm only going back 65 years.
- Stanley
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Bumped.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
- Stanley
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- Posts: 90437
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Bumped. This one still rouses strong passions. It's also essential local history!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
- PanBiker
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
That accolade came about due to the Victorian St James Church never being sanctified for marriage when it was first built and opened. This slight oversight was not discovered for about 60 years or so. The upshot being that all those wed during that particular period weren't actually married.
Ian
Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
On my first ever pilgimage to Barnoldswick, I popped into the newsagents to get the local paper. I had a chat with the newsagent Fred Nutter, and unprompted he mentioned in the conversation the 'living o'er 't brush thing. It's deep in the psyche of the locals.
I think Stanley has spoken about another reason for the story - something to do with the unionisation of the workforce which attracted people from other areas. (?) A bit vague I know.
Is there any evidence that anyone was denied anything (in a legal sense) as a result of this ecclesiastical error? For example - a wife unable to inherit from her husband because they weren't married.
Here's the shop -
PS I think this from the site in 2012 answers the question - I didn't realise it was so long ago.
Marriage in Barnoldswick
Post by Twinkletoes » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:26 am
I am sure there was also a church called St James but I did a bit of research and found this, and rules St James' out!
Brief History
1837 Church erected by Rev.Richard Milner. Unfortunately he forgot to register the church for the solemnization of marriages. This was not discovered for another 40 years so all the marriages which had taken place there over those 40 years were illegal and invalid. It gave rise to the saying that the people in Barnoldswick were all "living over the brush" and is still said today.
It was decided that all the marriages should be declared legal.
1851 Religious Census = Consecrated 1842 as Chapel of Ease to Gill Church
1911 Plot of land on Skipton Road to be used for a new church - the present St.James to be replaced by Holy Trinity (BWK.CE.03), but not until 1958
1960 Church closed 20.March.1960, subsequently demolished and site rebuilt with shops & offices
You might find some information here Church History
I think Stanley has spoken about another reason for the story - something to do with the unionisation of the workforce which attracted people from other areas. (?) A bit vague I know.
Is there any evidence that anyone was denied anything (in a legal sense) as a result of this ecclesiastical error? For example - a wife unable to inherit from her husband because they weren't married.
Here's the shop -
PS I think this from the site in 2012 answers the question - I didn't realise it was so long ago.
Marriage in Barnoldswick
Post by Twinkletoes » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:26 am
I am sure there was also a church called St James but I did a bit of research and found this, and rules St James' out!
Brief History
1837 Church erected by Rev.Richard Milner. Unfortunately he forgot to register the church for the solemnization of marriages. This was not discovered for another 40 years so all the marriages which had taken place there over those 40 years were illegal and invalid. It gave rise to the saying that the people in Barnoldswick were all "living over the brush" and is still said today.
It was decided that all the marriages should be declared legal.
1851 Religious Census = Consecrated 1842 as Chapel of Ease to Gill Church
1911 Plot of land on Skipton Road to be used for a new church - the present St.James to be replaced by Holy Trinity (BWK.CE.03), but not until 1958
1960 Church closed 20.March.1960, subsequently demolished and site rebuilt with shops & offices
You might find some information here Church History
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Sapere Aude
Ego Lego
Preferred pronouns - Thou, Thee, Thy, Thine
My non-working days are Monday - Sunday
- Stanley
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- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: WHITE ROSE BARLICK
Ian is correct about the Milner mistake with St James' church but there are, in addition, a lot of men living with their 'nieces' and her child mentioned in the census. I always said someone should research them but I never got on with it.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!