KNICKERS!

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Stanley
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KNICKERS!

Post by Stanley »

009

KNICKERS!

One of the failings of many social historians is that they tend to shy away from any subject that their upbringing might regard as 'rude'. Bathing, any reference to bodily functions and what the Victorians called 'unmentionables' get very little mileage. I remember when I was advising on interpretation at Pendle Heritage I put up a case for talking to schoolchildren about these matters and getting their attention. It never came to anything and I have an idea that I was thought to be either eccentric or coarse to even raise the subject. Nobody shared my view that what made kids snigger was engaging their attention on a very basic level and if you want to teach, the first thing you do is get the pupil's attention.
Talking about soap last week triggered off feedback from friends who had been reminded of their childhood by references to granny making her own soap and grating it to make 'soap powder'. They also remembered the rubbing of soiled clothes with soap and scrubbing them before putting them in the wash. This is where you raise your eyebrows and start to wonder just how my mind works but this immediately triggered off the subject of cotton gussets in my mind and from there it was a short step to unmentionables. Sorry if this puts you off but we shouldn't ignore the really important aspects of social history. Part of this is from memory but much comes from the interviews I did for the Lancashire Textile Project. I asked specific questions about personal hygiene, knickers and underpants. Nobody refused to respond, they recognised the importance of evidence of development and change.
Leaving aside the modern macho concept of 'going commando' which I can never understand because like me, the commandos were issued with loose underpants as part of their army kit and wore them, I think it's fair to say that today everyone realises the value of wearing light absorbent clothes next to the skin which are easily washable. Even today, the most favoured material is cotton. I should make it clear that I am talking about the ordinary people, not the wealthy who could afford silk. The fact that surprised me was that underpants for men, as we know them, were unknown to many of the working class until about 1930. All but the cheapest trousers had a sewn in cotton lining which could occasionally be taken out and washed separately. This was necessary because most trousers were made from wool and were never washed beyond sponging down to clean them and avoid shrinkage. By the 1920s these cotton linings were attached with buttons inside the waistband which made extraction easier and it wasn't long before tapes were attached to the waistband of the underpants through which you threaded the tongues of your braces. Remember that though elastic existed, it was not robust enough to use in the waistband,washing weakened it. This gave rise to what to me is an interesting fact. If you used this method of holding your pants up you had to tuck your shirt in your underpants. To this day I still aver that you can always trust a bloke who tucks his shirt in his underpants! This applied to both cotton pants and winter woollies.
The Second World War was a spur to invention and affected cheap clothing. One of the most important was the availability for the first time of cheap waterproof outer garments but that's outside the scope of this piece. I can remember getting underpants with elasticated waists for the first time and being able to wear them under my shirt laps! In those days all shirts had a substantial lap front and back which you tucked into your trousers. At that time all underpants were the same, like cotton shorts with no tailoring, it wasn't until much later that the different styles we know today came into being.
Ladies nether garments followed a different track mainly because they had no trousers that could act as a base for a sewn-in lining. I don't know when they first appeared but the solution was 'drawers'. These were two separate legs joined at the waist and fastened with a draw string at the waist and the knee. There was no gusset and in case of need the legs could be drawn apart hence the name drawers. I have no direct knowledge but I suspect that it wasn't until the advent of the 20th century that the drawers became joined and acquired a gusset, they retained the knee fastening.
Looking at the long skirts used by all classes of women I have to confess that my mind has occasionally strayed to the problems they must have faced when attending to bodily functions. Even more amazing is how those wearing crinolines or bustles managed. One thing is certain, it wasn't easy and I can understand why the aristocracy had ladies in waiting and maids, they must have been essential! Consideration of this raises another matter, it would seem that people in those days were far less self-conscious about bodily functions. It looks as though the development of clothing led to the possibility of more privacy and that leads a devious mind like mine to speculate on what came first and what drove the developments, but that would be another article...
If I've taken you beyond your comfort boundaries I apologise but if we want to understand our past we have to be able to see our subject through the frame of reference of the time. Our modern thinking is much more oriented towards different standards of cleanliness and privacy. We mustn't judge our ancestors by our standards, they had to cope with the world they lived in. There is a paradox, given reasonable attention to personal cleanliness it may well be that the looser fitting undergarments encouraged better ventilation and eliminated some of the problems we see today. Don't worry, I'm not going to go there but as you slip into your modern knickers and underpants spare a thought for what earlier generations had to cope with and how it modified their attitudes. If you can do that, this article will have worked, you're adopting their frame of reference.

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Re: KNICKERS!

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Very interesting Stanley. Its such aspects of social history that have fascinated me.
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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by Bodger »

Stanley, re bodily functions, i recall from a tv program that there was often a toilet in the corner of the dining room where diners could go and relieve themselves, this was behind a movable screen.
Maybe this was the cause of holding loud conversation while eating, this drowned out the noises from behind the screen ?
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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by Bodger »

an addition to the above, i also remember that in the West Riding at dinners at harvest time while everyone was present it was'nt uncommon for women to breast feed whilst dining themselves
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Re: KNICKERS!

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I'm glad to see you are getting down to the basics, Stanley! When I was a child we wore underpants that were more like what young folk now think of as boxer shorts - but always in white of course. I remember when my mum came home one day with new-fangled underpants, the tighter ones with no legs in them and more like swimming trunks, and said "These are what you'll wear from now on". I was shocked: "But Mum, those are girls knickers!" Well, they looked more like knickers to me than underpants. And I had to wear them - but I must admit they were less draughty in a Lancashire winter!

Bodger is drifting off topic but leads me to an interesting fact. The famous Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe (1546-1601) is said to have died from a kidney problem because he refused to leave a banquet to relieve himself, believing to do so would have been a breach of etiquette. After returning home he was almost unable to pee and died 11 days later - and probably very painfully. There are more recent suggestions that he died from mercury poisoning and that leads into another interesting fact about the man. As a student at Rostock University in Germany he had a dispute with another student over a mathematical formula and they settled it with a sword duel (scientists were more belligerent in those days!) but came out of it with a severely damaged bridge to his nose. For the rest of his life he wore various metal prostheses on the remains of his nose and some people claim it was mercury from these that killed him.

Want one more fact? When Tycho Brahe wanted to publish his research results he built a paper mill to make the paper on which to publish them. That's what I call doing things in style. If you want to read more about this fascinating man, for instance his court jester and his tame moose, have a look at the Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe
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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by Stanley »

Historically, people were a lot less embarrassed re bodily functions. I remember a passage from John Evelyn's diaries where he recounted having a conversation with a visitor whilst 'at stool'.

One for the voyeurs....

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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by One Carleton Gal »

Very interesting article. I collect vintage knickers and ladies underwear, i took my 'old' knickers to the last meeting of Bosom Friends, they caused quite a few laughs.

The 'drawers' you refer to, which i suppose were the 'open crotch of the day', were deemed as very healthy for women because they allowed the air to circulate. Indeed some women were still wearing them in the 1950's!! plus as you say, when you had long skirts and crinolines on, it certainly made spending a penny easier.

i quote from a book re the hop pickers of kent:
there were no privies in the hop fields of Kent in the 1920s, judging by the antics of the women. They used a screen of picked hop bines when they were in need and never pulled their skirts up. Most of them were in possession for hop picking of a type of knicker, 'two legs on tape', as they called them. So you only had to squat and make out you were picking up dropped hops.

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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by Bodger »

Not sure how far we can go on this subject ?, but i remember school girl knickers with a pocket for handkecrhieves, and the local co-op selling french ones 1945/7 with wide legs known as easy f--lers, i was only 10 at the time, but obviously it remained in my memory even though i dtd'nt know what it meant
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Post by Stanley »

Big disadvantage of French Knickers is that if you have long legs and can't get correct size of tights you suffer from dropped crotch syndrome. The cure is to wear a tight pair of briefs under them..... (Amazing what you learn in a long and eventful life!)
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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by One Carleton Gal »

stockings and suspenders are the best thing to wear with french knickers. lovely and cool in summer.
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Re: KNICKERS!

Post by PanBiker »

Stanley wrote:Big disadvantage of French Knickers is that if you have long legs and can't get correct size of tights you suffer from dropped crotch syndrome. The cure is to wear a tight pair of briefs under them..... (Amazing what you learn in a long and eventful life!)
This smacks of harvest festival syndrome, two pairs of knickers and tights, whatever next! The correct mode of deployment irrespective of the length of leg is as stated above, or without the stockings. Only my humble opinion of course. :wink:
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We stray into the area of adequate ventilation and the propagation environment that encourages Thrush. I once had an interesting conversation with a coal man at Causeway Foot near Denholme. He had six daughters and told me that the worst thing that ever happened to him was the advent of tights because unlike stockings, a minor ladder in one leg meant the good leg was discarded as well. His solution was to issue an edict that all tights had to be the same colour shade and that in the event of a ladder, the defective leg was cut off and worn with another defective pair. This meant a double layer of nylon in the gusset and briefs as well. I have no information of any increase in fungal infections.....
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Post by Tizer »

Panbiker, when you have the nostalgic WW2 events and wear your British and American military uniforms do you wear authentic underwear too? Did the Americans have more comfortable underwear than the Brits?

Sally, I have a lot of collecting hobbies that I enjoy and have to avoid getting involved in too many but I must admit that collecting vintage underwear hadn't occurred to me. But I'm glad you are doing it - someone has to look after our heritage, even the invisible bits!
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Tizer wrote:Panbiker, when you have the nostalgic WW2 events and wear your British and American military uniforms do you wear authentic underwear too? Did the Americans have more comfortable underwear than the Brits?
British Army underwear for battledress consisted of long john's and singlet. I find that the wool based battle dress is quite warm enough without enduring that combination as well! The Yanks tended to have better quality and in some respects more modern underwear, they generally had a cotton T shirt and plain cotton shorts.

In general, underwear did vary across the services and to some degree depending on what uniform it was combined with. The lads in the bombers would need all the insulation they could get whereas jungle and desert kit would need a lot lighter undergarments for both comfort and manoeuvrability.

Thankfully, from a blokes point of view, it's a lot easier for the ladies to be more authentic as stockings, suspenders and various styles of female lingerie has stood the test of time and can still be obtained. I have it on good authority that with regard to suspender arrangements for stockings that 4, 6 or even 8 point suspenders are far superior to the modern idea that two points per leg is suitable for holding up proper stockings. Of course, bare legs for the majority of civilian girls was the norm during the war. Female service personnel were issued with rather thick stockings some were wool based depending on the service arm and the job role.
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Post by Stanley »

Ian, in the kit I was issued with in 1954 we didn't have John L's but light green cotton boxers with a drawstring waist. Mind you, at the time there was a good chance we would be sent to Korea after training. Even in the depths of the Berlin winter we didn't get heavy underwear, we used pyjama bottoms instead.
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Fascinating! A good bit of social history going on record here!
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Re: KNICKERS!

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Surprised theres been no comments from any of the "Jacks" , they are used to taking things down !!
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I found out years later that the coldest guards we did in the diplomatic quarter where we wore our pyjamas under two pairs and uniform trousers was to protect Princess Margaret. I have no information about her knickers but I hope she was warmer than we were! (We had no live ammunition either, if anything had happened we would have been as much use as a chocolate teapot!)
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You could have pointed the gun and shouted BANG!
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Peter, you may have difficulty believing this but that's exactly what I did when we were on exercise with the 17pdrs. I had no thunderflashes which we used to simulate a shot at a tank so I stood there and shouted 'BANG!' I was congratulated on my initiative by the referees..... The only time we ever saw live ammo in Berlin was when we were on the ranges and this included Border Patrols where we were up against heavily armed Russian troops and the Vopos. Funnily enough this never bothered us even when we saw the tracer hosing down on the Eiskeller where the Vopos thought we were hiding. Happy Days!
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Bumped
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Bumped again.
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Re: KNICKERS!

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👍 another interesting article.
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Thanks Gloria! :biggrin2: :good:
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Re: KNICKERS!

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Another 2012 retread!
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