Speed Awareness

[chinatyke]

Years ago, I used to issue the company drivers with FTA (Fleet Transport Association) HGV maps that had height restrictions and unsuitable routes marked on them. Surely this information will not have been lost and will have been updated to sat-nav format for LGV drivers? I haven't kept in touch with the industry so I don't know what is currently available.
Last month in Nanning a double decker bus went under a protection barrier put up to warn drivers of a low bridge ahead. 10 people were hurt and the bus was instantly converted into a open top tourist bus. The funny part was that to go under the low bridge (an overpass) involved turning left and the bus was going straight on but was in the wrong lane, so the protection barrier caused an accident that would not have occurred. You can just see that in the photo. The next day the barriers were taken down!

[Tizer]

Is this a way of solving the problem of an ever increasing population in China? Cull the top deck travellers? (Memo to self: remember to only travel on single-deckers if I ever visit China!)

[Stanley]

Low bridges have always been a problem! Time for one of my stories.....
There used to be a low railway bridge on the road up the Kendal from Settle, high vehicles had to hit the centre. I found a mate on the side of the road one morning above the bridge looking anxiously at his high load of baled wool for Hawick. I stopped to see if he was OK and he told me he must have fallen asleep at the wheel because he couldn't remember the low bridge and feared he might have damaged the load. I told him he hadn't been asleep, they blew the bridge up and cleared it away three days before.....

[PanBiker]

If only they did sat-navs that were vehicle size appropriate, then you wouldn't meet huge artics on the narrow twisty top road, whose driver has been following a sat-nav from the M65 to Barlick. They meet something coming the other way at a nip point and its torment and misery all around, if its another artic, you'd need a Chinook helicopter to sort it out....

Most sat navs have third party overlays that can be added to the base mapping that can suggest oversize vehicle routes. The problem I invariable came across during my 10 years of commuting to Burnley and back over the top road was that most of the drivers that got stuck (usually up Barnoldswick Rd on the corner where Red Lane runs in) were continental, many without any command of the English language. So, what chance do they have with the sat nav defaulting on shortest route and not being able to read the sign at the junction at the bottom that says the road is not suitable for heavy vehicles! I started work at 8.00am in Burnley and my record for the longest time in a jam at that point was 2 hours. If you met the artic just as he had tried to take the corner you were pretty well stuffed. Traffic was generally backed up past the Cross Gaites behind you and down into Higherford behind the wagon at that time in the morning. It usually required 4 or 5 police vehicles and crew to mange the traffic on the main road and systematically back every one out to clear the escape routes at Red Lane and Cross Gaites. I don't do the route any more but I bet the problem has not gone away.

[Stanley]

The problem isn't so much the size of the vehicles but the type. Maximum length artics get stuck on tight bends because they cut in so much. In all my time delivering to farms on narrow roads with a 60ft wagon and trailer I never found a bend I couldn't negotiate and there is always somewhere where you can get into the side to allow cars and smaller vehicles past. The only trouble I got was cars who couldn't/wouldn't reverse to the passing point and that was soluble. Go to Rough Lea and turn into the road up to Stang Top, that was probably the narrowest road I ever found but I could manage it, Mind you, I'll admit it was tight and I only went up there when it was absolutely necessary....

[lin46]

I live on a road where a 20mph restriction has recently replaced a 30mph zone. Previously little regard appeared to be taken of this speed limit. We have speed pads one of which is outside the house. I drive easily up and down this road within the limit. Unfortunately many others do not including heavy vehicles, tractors and the people coming and going to work, presumably. Most of these are locals who would no doubt be up in arms if an accident to a child caused serious injury or death due to illegal speeding. I have had experience of the Lancashire Speed Awareness Course and considered it worth the money and an opportunity to brush up skills and knowledge. Offenders should just stop moaning and realise that speeding is an offence in law, and being caught is a direct result of breaking the law. The 20 MPH is there for a reason. Apart from anything else the noise of speeding vehicles bumping over the useless speed pads is sometimes horrendous. I wish more was being to done to enforce the legal limit on this road. The length of time one has driven before being caught speeding is totally irrelevant as for all the court knows it could be fifty years of speeding. Where is the evidence to the contrary? Wake up, stop making excuses and obey the law. IT IS NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

[PanBiker]

Offenders should just stop moaning and realise that speeding is an offence in law, and being caught is a direct result of breaking the law. The 20 MPH is there for a reason. Apart from anything else the noise of speeding vehicles bumping over the useless speed pads is sometimes horrendous. I wish more was being to done to enforce the legal limit on this road. The length of time one has driven before being caught speeding is totally irrelevant as for all the court knows it could be fifty years of speeding. Where is the evidence to the contrary? Wake up, stop making excuses and obey the law. IT IS NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

As the instigator of this thread I assume your comments here are directed at me. First of all I must say that I volunteered this information and was not forced to post my transgression of the highway code. The importance of maintaining the anonymity of people who are offered the course and subsequently take it up is re-enforced during the induction phase at the start of the course so by posting this I have nothing to hide. I don't need to wake up and am not making excuses or moaning about my treatment under the law if you would care to read my posts properly.

I offered the information as an observation of the processes involved and my surprise at the size of the problem. The sheer number of people being processed through these courses is staggering and it really goes to show that minor transgression of speed limits is an endemic problem within the driving population in general.

For the record, I completed my course on the 6th June and found it to be very informative and well worth attending. After nearly 45 years driving and riding I am not too proud to admit that there are things I had forgotten since I took my original tests.

I would go as far as to say that it would not be a bad idea for all drivers to go on such a course. I would go even further and say that I would also support mandatory re-assessment of all driving licence holders every 5 years or so although this could not realistically be done under our present training and licensing regime. The ROSPA trainers that delivered the course have to re-certify every 3 years or they lose their credential for teaching. Many of the holders of groups for heavier vehicles also have to be re- tested on a regular basis.

Speed awareness courses are only offered to those who have driven slightly over the various limits, again this is not an excuse but a fact. It remains to be seen whether the large fines and jail sentences recently made available to the courts will be used more frequently to prosecute to the full extent of the law those who are outside the scope of the retraining option.

[lin46]

My comments were not directed solely at you, Why would you imagine they were? The fact is that many drivers ignore speed limits. The more offenders who are caught and fined or banned from driving, the better. The research pertaining to the relationship between driver speed and severity of injury or death can be accessed on the internet.
Thank you for taking the time to reply in such minute detail.

[PanBiker]

Fining or banning is OK but I think it would be much better to have mandatory training and retesting for repeat offenders. Banning does not always work for the persistent offenders, they will continue to drive with or without licence or insurance in many cases, these are the ones that need jailing in my view. Mind you having said that the prisons are already full. How about automatic impounding and crushing of vehicles regardless of worth or usage?

Welcome to the site by the way.

[Tizer]

Wake up, stop making excuses and obey the law. IT IS NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

Lin46, you asked Panbiker why would he imagine your comments were directed at him. As he said, he started the thread and your sentence, copied above, doesn't specify who it is directed at so we would naturally have to assume you directed it at Panbiker. If you make statements like the above in an internet forum it's always wise to make it clear who you're directing it at.

Your post may have been directed at me, judging from the sentence "The length of time one has driven before being caught speeding is totally irrelevant as for all the court knows it could be fifty years of speeding" as I'd mentioned in another thread that I'd been fined for the first time in 50 years of driving. I sometimes drove too fast in my early years and sometimes drove with too much alcohol inside me - it was a different world then but I changed with it and gave up speeding and drink driving a long time ago. Now I'm very cautious, observe speed limits and usually have a queue of cars and even lorries behind me trying to pass (and that was before I got the speeding fine!). Yet I live in a village where the traffic speeds through regardless of the limits and the school, post office and shop are all close together, on the main road in the village centre. On the single track country lanes around the village the cars race around blind bends and squeeze past each other at speed. If I make a mistake and get fined, fair enough, but what's galling is to see other cars driving much faster than me, repeatedly, and apparently not getting caught.

[Tripps]

There is always this alternative - if you are wealthy enough. . .

Justice?

[Stanley]

In an ideal world Lin would be right but how many times have you been in a line of traffic on a single lane road where the stream is all exceeding the limit with the driver behind tailgating? I'm even older than you Tiz and was also a lawbreaker but as you say, it was a different world... By the way, being a wagon I had more laws to go at! In my defence, I had a remarkably accident free record considering the millions of miles I got under my belt.

[PanBiker]

Time to revisit this thread and what better way than this which has some relevance. Slight apologies to some non local members who may not know where this is but the road in question has a higher than average serious and fatal accident rate.

The A686 Blacko to Gisburn road is to be fitted with average speed cameras. David Whipp posted these links over in Facebook land.

New measures to save more lives on Lancashire's roads

This prompted numerous comments in the Facebook thread as to how effective this measure would be.

The why's and wherefore's link makes very interesting reading and puts forward a good argument for such measures.

Lancashire Road Safety Partnership - Current Initiatives

[Stanley]

About time too. When I first went to the US I was impressed by the 55mph limits on interstate roads and the slow speeds in the small towns of the mid-West. One thing I learned in my years on the road was that a wagon with a big engine limited to 52mph was just as fast in the long run as many fast cars being driven like hell. The difference at the end of the day after a long trip, say 500 miles, was minimal. Speed is a drug and should be treated as such.

[David Whipp]

Thanks Ian.

The route has been described as having one of the worst ten accident records in the country.

Quite a lot of signing and lining work was done in (I think) 2008 and the accident record has improved since then, but far too many people are still crashing on the road.

I'm hopeful that this will be an effective initiative.

[Tizer]

About time too. When I first went to the US I was impressed by the 55mph limits on interstate roads and the slow speeds in the small towns of the mid-West. One thing I learned in my years on the road was that a wagon with a big engine limited to 52mph was just as fast in the long run as many fast cars being driven like hell. The difference at the end of the day after a long trip, say 500 miles, was minimal. Speed is a drug and should be treated as such.

That's why I'm always ranting on about speed limits and how the critical point is enforcement - they don't do any good if they're not enforced. And you're right about not getting to the destination significantly faster. Any small saving in time is far outweighed by the increased risk of going faster. You and I were lucky enough to be able to enjoy fast cars on the open road but those days are long gone, the roads are far too busy and dangerous now for that.

[PanBiker]

I have proved the less speed but more efficiency effect on numerous occasions. When I used to do the Stratford run regularly down the M6 corridor I got into the habit of always exiting the motorway when my speed dropped to less than 30mph for any length of time. Not much point being on a motorway at that speed. The A road network can be a lot more efficient as on the main routes you can often average 50mph which in my book is a lot more progressive than 0 to 30 stop start. Another advantage is that all services off the motorway are lot cheaper and are more numerous, something to look at as well and you actually get to drive rather than just cruise in top on a good day or hammer the gearbox, clutch and brakes in stop start.

[Stanley]

Quite right Ian......

[Tizer]

When we drive east to London we almost always use the A303 rather than going up the M5 then across the M4. I hate motorways now. Ian mentions there being more services but I think more important is that there are more `escape routes'. On the motorway you can only leave at the junctions but on A roads there are more side roads to slip onto if there's a traffic jam or if you begin to feel oppressed by the amount of traffic.

[Big Kev]

Got my invite for the speed awareness course, it's an online course via Zoom. All booked for next Thursday morning and £87 lighter.

[PanBiker]

Better than having to drive to Leyland Kev. Good job they have dropped the practical.

[Big Kev]

Indeed, the 'physical' location would have been Gisburn. It's only 09:00 - 11:30 too, had to part with £87 but it's a better option than £100 and 3 spots.

[PanBiker]

Leyland was the nearest for me when I did it. I have said many times that it should be an automatic part of learner driver training. I found it very useful even after 40 years of driving on four wheels and riding on two.

[Big Kev]

It'll be a good refresher, I passed my car test in 1979 and my LGV C+E in 1995 (that's a class 1 artic licence for those not familiar with the renaming of everything). It's probably about time I learned something new

[PanBiker]

The course will lend itself quite well to Zoom if it follows the same format I had delivered. Mine included a number of observation video's to spot potential hazards and reading the road ahead. All useful stuff.