POLITICS CORNER

[Stanley]

I heard a commentator on the BBC saying last night that the debate amongst the candidates was bad tempered and that it appeared to him that the candidates were actually putting forward their job applications to Boris for the new Cabinet. The same commentator said that in terms of approval by the audience the clear favourite was Rory Stewart but of course he is already seen as an also-ran. I didn't listen to it and so have no personal view but it sounds plausible to me. Question is what happens when Bojo participates in the later TV debate. We can but hope he blows a gasket!
In another part of the forest what the hell does Trump think he is doing? see THIS for a BBC report of the latest attack on London Mayor Sadiq Khan, calling him a "national disgrace" who is destroying the UK's capital. Thank God his office have had the sense to dismiss the latest attack as not worthy of comment. Apart from the fact that Trump doesn't understand what is happening to policing in the UK he has no concept of and doesn't care about what would normally be seen as moderate diplomatic ways of expressing a view. In this case of course it is nothing at all to do with him.
He and Bolton are stoking his disruptive rhetoric on the situation in the Straits of Hormuz, this is incredibly dangerous and it looks as though J Hunt has swallowed the official US view hook line and sinker. Remember Vietnam and Iraq!
Later after listening to even more Conservatives saying how Boris can 'bring the country together again' and avoiding any question of would there be an electoral pact with Farage I am certain that all of them are avoiding the plain truth, which is behind this whole momentum to forced Brexit through 'by any means' as Dominic Raab said. The elephant in the room is that if they get Brexit through before an election they chop the electoral legs off Farage and it becomes a straight fight for survival against the established parties. As has been the case all along, this is all about a desperate attempt to save the Tories from oblivion. It is a disgrace and nowhere near democracy.

[plaques]

Boris's coronation has been hit on the head. The other contestants don't want to be seen as nonentities by backing out.
Watched as much as I could endure on the contestant debate. It followed a predictable formula of Corbyn bashing and we must keep Labour out at all costs. Followed by how they would negotiate a new deal which would be far more advantageous than Mrs May's deal. No detail of course. Even if the EU couldn't be made to see sense we would go it alone because we are a great country that beat the Nazi's in 1945, forgetting of course that without America coming in we would have probably lost. Also side stepping 'lease lend' and Marshall Aid which without we would have starved. Rory Stewart made far more sense and rubbished many of the other contestants suggestions but rather spoiled it by having to constantly reiterate his Conservative credentials.

Straits of Hormuz. Strange goings on. Japan trades heavily with Iran buy a lot of their oil. The Japanese ambassador currently in Iran on business. A Japanese oil tanker is hit by a mine / rocket? The Americans have aerial footage of something going on near the side of the ship. What a coincidence that they just happened to be watching? Me cynical, never.

[Tizer]

I'm pleased to see Tom Watson stressing that we must stay in the EU and pushing for another referendum to break the deadlock.
`Labour 'needs clear anti-Brexit position', says Tom Watson' LINK

If Watson was the Labour leader and there was a General Election I'd vote Labour. It's Corbyn who is putting off many people.

[PanBiker]

It's Corbyn who is putting off many people.

Bit of a sweeping statement there Tiz, quite unlike you with your scientific background. Have you canvassed all of the electorate for this statement or is it just supposition? Not been tested either, chance would be a fine thing but the Tories are into self preservation mode so not much chance of that until Bozo slips up. That could actually be the final breakpoint.

[Stanley]

Ian, Tiz has a good point, like you I am all for loyalty but we have to be realistic and recognise when a leader is failing. When he first got elected I noted that he didn't have a night of the long knives and take steps to ensure he had a loyal Cabinet at least. Since then there have been so many instances where instead of imposing his view and acting as a strong leader he has allowed undesirable traits to emerge like anti-Semitism and these have cost the party dearly.
P don't forget that the biggest single factor in defeating Germany was the sacrifice of the Russians who sucked the life blood out of Germany on the Eastern Front.
If Labour were to bite the bullet and recognise the complete madness of Brexit they would smash all opposition even at the cost of losing some members who didn't agree for various reasons.
The current surreal situation with the Tories fighting an insider war using a tiny unrepresentative electorate is a disgrace both politically and democratically. The question that faces the UK is not whether we should leave the EU but how do we re-establish democratic government.
Meanwhile, forget the 'Cliff Edge', the danger is an uncontrolled slide into recession and we are already there and many of the unforeseen consequences can never be retrieved. P is quite right, it's time to forget 'plucky Britain standing alone', and face up to realities. We do not 'punch above our weight', The future prosperity of the global economy does not lie in the West and what we should be doing is adjusting society for the changing circumstances of a modern world. A key part of that is international cooperation and being in the EU is a start in that direction. Contrast that with the isolationist tendencies we are seeing ruling our lives.

[Tizer]

Ian, you know quite well I can't canvas all of the electorate or hold a general election, and I said Corbyn is `putting off many people', not `all people' or even `the majority of people'. But I do read widely and in depth and listen to many serious radio programmes and news stories. I often read and hear comments from long-time, loyal Labour supporters saying they're not happy with Corbyn and that he's holding back the Party. This doesn't mean that all Labour supporters feel the same way but it does mean the Party is badly split and at a time when it can't afford to be so. I'm as sad as you must be that this is the case because I want to see a strong, solid opposition to the Tories. And as I said above, I'd vote for Labour if Watson was leader instead of Corbyn.

More from Tom Watson...
`Brexit: 'High price to pay' for Labour stance, says Watson' LINK

[plaques]

I think we are falling into the old trap of arguing among ourselves on outcomes the Labour Party can do nothing about. The Tory's are in charge of Parliament and will decide the agenda for what is presented to parliament and what gets voted on. As we have seen they have just rejected a proposal for another vote on the withdrawal agreement ie: to ask for a further extension in the event of a No Deal. If the Tory's don't want a second referendum then Tom Watson can huff and puff as much as he likes its not within his or Corbyn's power to offer one. Should Boris become Prime Minister that is the Tory's choice and nobody can do anything about it. If everything goes belly up and we crash out trashing the economy there is always a short term fix of a giveaway budget that will put a bit of feel good veneer onto living standards until people forget what has really happened. As we have already experienced it is almost impossible to keep track of current events never mind after two years time.

[Tripps]

We don't have the 'thumbs up' sign to signify agreement with a post any more.

If we did you might get two for that.

[Big Kev]

20190618_115407.jpg

We do

[Tripps]

Thanks or the reminder Kev. In fact I was thinking of the uptick which used to keep a record of what you upticked (I think), and gave someone an overview of how popular their posts were.

(On second thoughts - maybe better I don't know ? ) )


Anyway

[PanBiker]

Yes, we used to have a thanks feature, (much like Facebook) but it was one of the 50 odd mods that eventually led to the breakdown of the platform. Executive decision to redeploy on a clean platform with minimal extensions and mods.

Current status is:

Enhanced Post Editor
Gallery Extension
1 x extra Smilie Pack

and on the admin side:

Auto Backup

KISS principle in operation.

[Tripps]

I agree - and thanks again Ian (and the others) for your work in keeping the site in good order.

[Tripps]

Gove just said ' if the agreement needs another 24 or 48 hours to get it over the line, he would not stick rigidly to the Oct 31st deadline.

Good grief - they will have had three and a half years by that time.

I can watch no more. . . .

[PanBiker]

It's the Bozo and boys show! I would ask though, why are the BBC showboating what is effectively an internal Tory matter. Tory MP's whittle and the Tory rabble will make the decision, this circus is a bit pointless really. Rod Stewart has it hands down on the body language though.

[Tripps]

an internal Tory matter.

Perhaps choosing the next Prime Minister who will deal with Brexit (or not) is a national matter?

It wasn't like that in the good old days. Granita

[PanBiker]

Indeed, but we the general electorate don't get a say in the matter unless there is an immediate General Election.

[plaques]

A quick comment about Boris's reply to 'should we have an immediate general election. The answer ..."I don't think the Labour party really wants an election" .(Big hearted Boris is doing the Labour party a favor.). " and here we are in the midst of a big political crisis...(crisis..an extremely difficult or dangerous point in a situation:).And who's fault is that?
The second World War was a crisis, every thing else since then has been met with 'Crisis what crisis', or a bit of local difficulty, but Boris has classed Brexit as a crisis.
All Boris's answers started of with mumbling and then drifted into incoherence. Perhaps that's what the Tory party wants someone to lead them who can't be understood!

No wonder Tripps gave up before the end of the programme.

[Stanley]

I tried to take an interest but first I had difficulty hearing what they were saying when they all spoke together and then I got angry at all of them except Rory Stewart. Then there was the buffoon waffle of Bojo and to a certain extent most of the others as well as when the lady asked how her husband's job would go and her kids lives. They actually said there could be a 'short period of readjustment'. Yes.... right. She wasn't convinced.
So I went back to a Youtube video of Indian village craftsmen re-tinning brass cooking pots.
I tried again later but it was not an improvement. I never heard any of them say exactly what they were going to do..... But then I heard very little about what the EU will allow them to do.
As for Her Majesty's Official Opposition..... why do they not get together and do something! Anything!
In another part of the forest.... I have a question. I keep listening to 'experts' opining about the chances of there being serious conflict in the Straits of Hormuz. It strikes me that all the opinions I have heard have something in common, they all assume that the target of suspicion is 'Iran'. This assumes that that country is a completely united and controlled state. I'd like to raise the point that this is not certain. It seems to me that one faction, say that controlling the Militia, may have strayed off the reservation and acted independently leaving the leaders no alternative but to back them. This is at least as possible as a concerted move by Iran towards conflict.
Could be worth considering.....

[Sue]

I'm pleased to see Tom Watson stressing that we must stay in the EU and pushing for another referendum to break the deadlock.
`Labour 'needs clear anti-Brexit position', says Tom Watson' LINK

If Watson was the Labour leader and there was a General Election I'd vote Labour. It's Corbyn who is putting off many people.

The truest words I have seen written. I am neither Labour nor Conservative but sometimes needs must. I voted Labour once and always regretted what I did but this man talked sense.

[Sue]

Just revisited this page after a week. I know why I stopped. The whole saga is so depressing. I did not watch the debates. I don’t want to listen to the lying, back biting and more important the evasion of questions and the repetition of all I have heard before. I am not Tory so can’t vote so it bears no interest to sit and listen. Thank goodness for another repeat of Midsommer Murders.

[Stanley]

I have deep sympathy for your view Sue. It's only pure masochism that keeps me coming back!

[plaques]

I don’t want to listen to the lying, back biting and more important the evasion of questions and the repetition of all I have heard before.

I could agree more. Its a sad state of affairs when you know that you are being lied to and the truth, whatever that is, is being hidden from you. I often think that the main purpose of all this misinformation is to create a state of apathy where Joe Public simply says 'they're all alike' and votes on tradition rather than fact. Another element which may have crept into modern politics is the rise of the so called 'middle class'. Stanley's post in 'The Banks are out to get you' Re:
We live in one of the richest nations in the world, I forget whether we are 4th or 5th at the moment. So with that in your mind read THIS BBC report on Poverty in Working Families then ask yourself "how can this be?".
Are the Tory's hoping that the 'centralists' have moved so far to the right that those at the bottom can be ignored? I know it is difficult to adjust to the fact that the UK is no longer a leading World power. Ever since the end of WW2 we have tried to maintain a status that we couldn't afford. The atomic bomb, an over extended military, visions of Empire (Suez canal), Africa, each time the writing was on the wall we couldn't afford it. Now we are contemplating crashing out of the EU under the same delusion of grandeur. Rory Stewart was right in saying we should be spending money on the people not handing it out as tax cuts for the rich.

PS. I hope Sue continues to contribute to these posts, everybody has an opinion and a right to be heard. That includes China

[Tizer]

Thanks, Sue, for your comment on my post. And I'm glad to see Stanley writing, `As for Her Majesty's Official Opposition..... why do they not get together and do something! Anything!' Well, perhaps they saw Stanley's post because I note that The Times this morning reports: `Jeremy Corbyn will back a move today for Labour to change its Brexit policy and support a second referendum in all circumstances'.

We're gluttons for punishment. We don't watch much telly but we girded our loins and watched the full hour. It reminded me of the reply given by a US mid-West farmer, to a British journalist interviewing `ordinary folk' at the time of Trump becoming president: `I'm a lifetime supporter of the Republican Party but tell me, is this really the best the Republican Party can do?' Well, except for Rory Stewart, is that really the best the Tory Party can do? I think Stewart looked at his colleagues perched on their stools like school kids and with ties dangling between their legs (`mine's longer than yours') and decided to opt out of that style immediately. Of course, he's a bit of a fidget and sitting on a stool for an hour would not be his choice. I noted at one point the others were questioning his ability to negotiate anything new - they should remember he has more experience of negotiation and under more difficult conditions than any of the others present. My only concern about Stewart is that he is determined that we leave the EU and doesn't want a second referendum; but then that's the same as most or all of the others.

Most of the replies to the questions presented were waffle and avoided giving a real answer, especially Johnson. They were promoting themselves in PR fashion - Gove came over as worst in this respect and he was also poking another knife into Johnson (deja vu).

Labour supporters should have been pleased to see the Tory Party making a fool of itself in public - now, as Stanley says, they must get on and do something!

Here is the first part of the article on the front page of The Times today. Poor quality and small because I had to screenshot it from a web image...


I also got this text from a later BBC page: `Meanwhile, the Times reports that Jeremy Corbyn is to back a move on Wednesday for Labour to change its Brexit policy and support a second referendum in all circumstances. The paper says the shadow cabinet is due to discuss the plan to make Labour's stance decisively pro-Remain. A senior Labour source tells the paper: "It is a moment". According to the Guardian, Mr Corbyn will flesh out and develop Labour's position in a speech perhaps as soon as this week.'

[chinatyke]

PS. I hope Sue continues to contribute to these posts, everybody has an opinion and a right to be heard. That includes China

[Stanley]

I'm pleased to see Sue contributing as well. She talks my version of common sense....
I agree with all of you. Perhaps the reason that they find it so difficult to find anything honest or of substance to say is that a.) They don't know anything certain and b.) Their minds are consumed with the elephant in the room, avoiding a general election with Farage as an opponent. It would be bad in a normal contest but with Farage's lot in the mix splitting the vote and taking seats they would be dead in the water.
They reckon Phil is hiding from Margaret, he doesn't want her to commit any money for her legacy......
Later, Marc Ritter in The Netherlands has some very critical things to say about Brexit.... Not on the web yet but I agree with everything he says.