SHARP PRACTICE?
We have to decide what Henry de Lacy was up to when he gave the Cistercians at Fountains Abbey a defective title to the Manor of Barnoldswick. Of course it might be a mistake but I can't believe that a man like Henry could be that careless or that his scribes and advisers had missed the two errors. Another question that has worried me over the years is why Henry, when for whatever reason he decided to found a monastery, decided on Barnoldswick, as far away as possible from his seat at Pontefract. Could it be that a piece of land on which his title had lapsed was one he could well do with unloading? Was the ploy, for that is what I now believe it was, of making the mistake in the perambulation a way of making sure that the grant would be tied up in court for many years and further, it would be the Cistercian's problem and not his? I'll leave others to judge but this is the conclusion I have come to after years of research.
Let's go back to May 1147 when according to Serlo, Alexander of Fountains with 12 monks and 10 lay-brothers arrived in Barlick to take up residence. This can't be the full story. The Cistercians were well organised and had a rule: 'No abbot shall be sent to a new place without at least twelve monks ... and without the prior construction of such places as an oratory, a refectory, a dormitory, a guest house, and a gatekeeper's cell, so that the monks may immediately serve God and live in religious discipline'. Again, the Cistercians were known to prefer locations 'far from the habitation of man'. This was why they were so popular with the Normans because they were ideal for settling on waste lands and improving them and there was plenty of that after the Harrowing of the North in 1069/1070 as part of the Conquest. In Barlick they were being put into the middle of a relatively prosperous and well settled manor. We know that in similar situations, as at 'Akarinton' (Accrington) in about 1490, the monks dispossessed the local inhabitants as soon as they arrived. Did they do this to Brogden?
Did Henry send his men at arms to effect the evictions? What preparations were made for the arrival of the monks, did Henry build the necessary facilities or were corners cut and existing farm houses used. Some provision must have been made but Serlo's account tells us nothing of this. The abbey site was also within earshot of an existing church and there was a clerk (priest) in post who was of a different order of monks to the Cistercians.
All the matters we have looked at were unusual and bear the marks of a botched project which seems guaranteed to cause friction and possibly serious trouble. This is of course exactly what happened and next week I'll go into the unhappy details.
Bolton Priory. Founded at the same time as Barnoldswick Abbey.
SHARP PRACTICE?
- Stanley
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SHARP PRACTICE?
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
Bumped and image restored.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
Bumped again and this article seems to be out of order but still asks some interesting questions which nobody has ever answered to my knowledge.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Wendyf
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Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
What are your thoughts on the harrying of the North, Stanley, and how it affected this area. Was land identified as waste in the Domesday Survey simply uncultivated land such as moorland and bog and not necessarily countryside 'laid waste' by the harrying?
- Stanley
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Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
I don't think we can know positively what was laid waste and what wasn't Wendy. So, as usual we have to use our heads.
First, the Normans hadn't got the resources to waste everything and I suspect they would concentrate their efforts on those parts that were an asset to Saxon Lords still in place who were a pain in the bum for them.
Second, they wouldn't waste time and energy on wasting land that was already regarded as waste.
So I doubt if they would be very active round here. After all, in theory de Lacey had everything under control here.
Look at it from the opposite point of view..... If there had been a wasting I think there might have been some mention of it in what evidence we have from the time. The folk memory is very powerful, look how it can maintain memories of small things. I have never hear any clue as to wasting.
That's the best I can do for you Wendy......
First, the Normans hadn't got the resources to waste everything and I suspect they would concentrate their efforts on those parts that were an asset to Saxon Lords still in place who were a pain in the bum for them.
Second, they wouldn't waste time and energy on wasting land that was already regarded as waste.
So I doubt if they would be very active round here. After all, in theory de Lacey had everything under control here.
Look at it from the opposite point of view..... If there had been a wasting I think there might have been some mention of it in what evidence we have from the time. The folk memory is very powerful, look how it can maintain memories of small things. I have never hear any clue as to wasting.
That's the best I can do for you Wendy......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
Worth the price of admission on its own I'd say . . . .
Born to be mild
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Sapere Aude
Ego Lego
Preferred pronouns - Thou, Thee, Thy, Thine
My non-working days are Monday - Sunday
- Stanley
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Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 95485
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
- Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.
Re: SHARP PRACTICE?
Bumped again. This story still fascinates me. Far more to it than we will ever know I fear but that's what makes it so intriguing!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!