POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 03 Nov 2016, 10:13

`Government loses Article 50 court fight' LINK
"Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the European Union, the High Court has ruled. This means the government cannot trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - beginning formal discussions with the EU - on its own."

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 03 Nov 2016, 10:43

Tizer wrote: "Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the European Union, the High Court has ruled. This means the government cannot trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - beginning formal discussions with the EU - on its own."
I stated this legal position back in June, could have saved them a lot of brass but taking the advice would not have paid the boys would it?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 03 Nov 2016, 11:08

I suspect Theresa et al had an idea that this could happen but they decided to push their luck to see whether they can get away with it. They will go to the Supreme Court now......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Whyperion » 03 Nov 2016, 22:11

I'm baffled, in Legal Terms, normally why the Court Of Appeal / House of Lords as was (Supreme Court) would overturn on a point of law that which the High Court has made a ruling on, unless it is to make a consitiutional change. I assume it is only an Act of Parliament can negate an Act Of Parliament ( such section being a repeal of such and such section ). I think it could only be possible to give guidance that parliament should take due heed of a referendum but never? bound by any referendum result. If the law is to be changed by the Supreme Court in that Parliament having delegated its authority to the outcome of a referendum could make the exit route by royal perogative or whatever.

If there is to be a general election if a Brexit Bill is brought forth that does not have , for example, Labour Employee safeguards in it, then the most likely result would be an England and Wales return of a majority favouring Brexit in any form, possibly for the more extreme parties in favour of restricting free movement of EU workers.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 04 Nov 2016, 05:10

See THIS for a BBC report on the matter. What it amounts to is that the unelected Leader of the Tory Party is challenging the Constitution. Arrogance or stupidity?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 04 Nov 2016, 09:48

Big shouty headlines this morning from:
Daily Mail - `Enemies of the people' under photos of the three Brexit judges.
Daily Express - `We must get out of the EU'.
The Sun - `Who do you think you are' referring to the ruling obtained by `a motley crew of EU-based campaigners led by a foreign born multimillionaire'.
And the Daily Telegraph features a short article on its front page by Nigel Farage titled `Voters aren't going to let this incredible arrogance lie'.
What chance does reasoned argument, logic and accuracy stand in the face of the news media onslaught? The newspapers control the thoughts and actions of a large segment of the population and therefore of the vote, whether it be in a referendum or an election. Like Donald Trump, they are now mining a rich seam of dissatisfaction.

The Sun doesn't like Gina Miller as shown by it's comment `a foreign born multimillionaire'. Yes, she's a very successful business woman but she had a tough early life and now devotes a lot of her time to helping others, especially children and the disabled. She founded the True and Fair Campaign whose aim is `to improve consumer protection within the UK pension and investment industry by highlighting numerous scandalous practices that have resulted in the British public having their savings ripped off.' But as far as The Sun is concerned she's simply a rich woman trespassing in a man's world of financial industry.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Bruff » 04 Nov 2016, 10:29

If you look at the photo of Gina Miller in The Sun it’s the exact same one as the photo of her in The Times, save for one thing. The Sun has darkened her complexion. Go on, have a look. What a disgusting country we are. I can’t wait to get out.

Still, in more civilised countries like Germany it would not require a ‘foreign-born multi-millionaire’ to bring a court case on matters of democracy in the first place. These civilised countries have constitutional courts or other public bodies that would have spiked at source any attempt to usurp their established democratic protocols.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 04 Nov 2016, 12:45

So our ex-prime minister Mr Cameron promised that a vote to leave the common market would mean just that. Now It is painfully obvious that he was lying. He was making a promise that had no foundation in law. No wonder that people have lost faith in what MPs say or appear to say. For the next month we will hear all manner of convoluted arguments about numbers, percentages and who misled who. All this because Cameron lied.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 05 Nov 2016, 03:10

Richard, I am shocked by your report of the comparison of the two pics. I can honestly say that the question of the lady's colour never entered my mind, all I thought was thank God someone is doing something to protect the legal process. Like many of you, I have always puzzled about how an advisory referendum was becoming set in stone as a political instruction. What strikes me is the arrogance of May and the right wing media in that they dismiss the High Court as irrelevant and some sort of establishment stitch-up. Can't they see that if they attack the process of law they attack the foundations of the system that validates their own position? The last time this happened it led to a civil war!
I was reading Charles Wilson on the 17th century yesterday and it struck me how many echoes there are today of the upheaval of the 17th century caused by the difficulty of managing the transition from a medieval system to the new realities of the world as England evolved rapidly and society changed. Then as now, the bad management of the rulers in that they couldn't adapt led to turmoil. This is beginning to look like a similar turmoil today!
P is quite right, the root of all this lies in the fatal decision of a weak and stupid man to take what looked like the easy way out to manage opposition within his own party caused by rabid right-wingers seeking to preserve and strengthen their control. Apart from anything else, his cunning plan hasn't even achieved that, the reason May is doing everything she can to avoid allowing MPs the vote is nothing to do with 'showing her hand', it is because she knows she can't rely on support from her own backbenchers.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 05 Nov 2016, 12:10

Gina Miller was born in Guyana, the daughter of the former attorney general, while the country was in turmoil. Her father became deputy leader and then the leader was assassinated. She was sent to the UK at 10 years old to be a boarding pupil at Roedean school where she was bullied and eventually ran away. She was taken back to Guyana against her wishes for a time but eventually managed to get a good education and became successful in business here. Even before her campaign for Parliament to have a say on Brexit she was suffering abuse. She related an example in an interview with the FT about her campaign for transparency in investment companies:
“Last summer I went along to an industry party and noticed three men staring at me. Being as bold as I am I went up to them, introduced myself and asked if there was a problem. One of them replied that I was a disgrace and that my lobbying efforts would bring down the entire City. “I thanked them for the power they had given me, but before I could walk off one of them asked if I knew the nickname people had for me. I knew it was not going to be nice but I didn’t want to give them the pleasure of me walking away. ‘We call you the black widow spider,’ they said.” Ms Miller, who was born in Guyana, pauses to let me digest the story. “That nickname is wrong on so many levels,” she finally adds. “But I do not and will not let other people bring me down. I believe that level of abuse means I am doing something right for investors.”

All this is just one aspect of a much bigger and more general problem we now have with behaviour in politicians, journalists, business leaders and the public at large. Anger and abuse is becoming the norm, as well as the assumption that lies and fraud are OK. It's very worrying and I wonder where it's leading us. We'll see the emergence and strengthening of extreme groups and the kind of conditions that led to people like Hitler and Mussolini. It's all playing into the hands of Putin too.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 05 Nov 2016, 13:31

Tizer wrote: as well as the assumption that lies and fraud are OK.
To quote Mervyn King, the ex- Governor of the Bank of England,"When did it become acceptable for clever people to take money from less clever people." See read any good books lately.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 06 Nov 2016, 04:47

Good posts.... I think that in that quotation King was trying to say that in his view it is unacceptable for people with the advantage of power over their circumstances to use that power to further increase that advantage by taking money form less privileged people. Unfortunately he only has to look back in history and recognise that this was the basis for the feudal system and the hierarchy of wealth. We may say it's unacceptable but it is still embedded in our society and is the basis of the wealth amassed by the super-rich, obscenely high rewards for executives and the use of wealth to bend the tax and political systems to the advantage of the wealthy. All this despite the strictures of religion which was once seen as the supreme power, transcending even the Monarchy. Remember the rich man and the eye of the needle? Remember the meek shall inherit the earth? Remember the fear of Purgatory? It seems as though greed and avarice will always trump what is right. Pure Marxist communism (not the bastardised version produced by men who were no better than the feudal and dynastic power they fought to overthrow) was a reaction to this system and failed. I think I know what King meant and he is right but the enemy is, and always has been, the skewing of the distribution of wealth by the powerful to maintain and strengthen their position. Look at what is happening now, the capital is being sucked in by the super-rich to the detriment of everyone else.
King is also right when he says that another crash is coming. Our leaders crow about minute changes in the growth of the economy but ignore the fact that these are piddling figures and don't compare with what we know to be the minimum amount of growth necessary to preserve stability. Look back at historic GDP and compare it with today. Look at the rising levels of debt. Ask yourself why it should be legal to charge 1200% annual interest rates and why people are desperate enough to take loans at that rate. Then get your tin hat out!
The way our system is constructed is that we, as a nation, should conform to this unfair rule that we take money off others to fuel our economy. It's called 'exports' and 'balance of trade'. The best way to do this is to have a vibrant manufacturing and research environment and this is best achieved by distributing wealth downwards to the sector that doesn't save but circulates the money thus financing a healthy GDP. Consider this; "The ordinary means therefore to increase our wealth and treasure is by foreign trade wherein we must ever observe this rule; to sell more to strangers yearly than we consume of theirs in value" That was written by man called Thomas Mun in 1664. (see reprint by the Economic History Society of 1933). Nothing has changed, the mechanisms are clear but greed and avarice fuels a system that is actually bound to destroy any chance of gaining this advantage.
I'm getting boring, I'll stop but at some point we are going to have to address these questions.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 07 Nov 2016, 07:30

Theresa May has to be seen to be doing something. Hence her 5 minute lecture to the EU and her trip to India. She keeps repeating that she is going to be tough and keep her cards close to her chest. Problem is that we know she has a bum hand! As soon as Article 50 is triggered in 28 letters to the individual EU states she loses all advantage and in effect becomes a supplicant. It is the EU that will decide how hard it's going to be and the signs are that it is going to be a blood bath. Isolated under the counter deals like the Nissan one are an exercise in PR, she can't afford to do the same for every other business large and small. All she can do in India is hint that in terms of inward migration to the UK, to paraphrase Orwell 'All migrants are equal but some are going to be more equal than others'. Will the same concession be used for all negotiations? This is only one question in an increasingly complicated matter and the bald truth is that we only have two years after the triggering of Article 50 to make up our minds and the time scales we see for other trade negotiations indicates that this is nowhere near long enough. further, this is only trade matters, there are a myriad of other problems that must be addressed. You can';t unpick 40 years of history in two years! She (and we) are on a hiding to nothing.
In the US Trump is no longer congratulating the FBI on their courage in exposing Clinton. He is now accusing them of rigging the election with the letter exonerating her. He is right in a way, the system is rigged. It is however rigged to protect itself and this volt face is nothing to do with attacking Trump, it's the system protecting itself. Roll on the result!
News just in that personal debt in the UK has now exceeded £1.5 trillion for the first time. (LINK). Go figure......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 07 Nov 2016, 10:15

As a British man with lots of business and political experience of India said this morning on the Today programme: `Let's not forget, we need them more than they need us'.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing we shouldn't forget - now is a great time for releasing bad news. The police are already being criticised for delaying release of the results of an inquiry from last week to this week.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Zurcher, the BBC's North America reporter, on the behaviour of the FBI during the US election:
"Once this election is in the rear-view mirror, there will have to be a lot of soul-searching within the FBI and the media about how this story has played out and been covered. Following Mr Comey's original letter, the nation's top law-enforcement became a constant source of leaks, as internal factions and disputes spilled into public view. Many pundits and analysts speculated that there would be no way Mr Comey would release the letter so close to the election unless Mrs Clinton's situation was truly dire. Those conclusions proved unfounded. If Mr Trump wins, many will attribute it to Mr Comey's actions and subject him to withering criticism. They will point to the fact that he disregarded longstanding Justice Department policy of restraint when it comes with the release of possibly inflammatory information in the months before a general election. If Mrs Clinton prevails, she likely will bear a grudge that is difficult to let go. The Clintons have long memories. If the tensions between the Obama Justice Department and the FBI have been high, they will only get higher. Either way the FBI director will have quite a mess to clean up."

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 07 Nov 2016, 12:32

Tizer wrote: now is a great time for releasing bad news
Exactly so. The benefits cap has been reduced from £26000 to £23000. This is to encourage poor people with dependents to work harder or find jobs. At the same time it has been suggested that pensioners have been doing too well out of the triple lock and it needs to be wheeled back to a constant of 24% of average earnings. Also the winter fuel payment is in the firing line. All this is probably to encourage pensioners to die a bit early and stop being a burden on the younger generation. Conversely, high earners require extra bonuses and tax breaks to make them work harder. Am I missing something?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 07 Nov 2016, 20:01

I'd say you don't miss much at all, Plaques! :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 08 Nov 2016, 04:07

You're right Tiz.... he doesn't. I heard that business man as well Tiz, pity Cameron didn't consult people like that before he triggered his catastrophe and then ran for the hills.
If Trump gets in, the US becomes a ship of fools. If Clinton gets the post Comey won't do anything about revising the FBI. He won't be there.... I heard a good report yesterday from a man in the US who has a reputation for being right about the hill. He pointed out that even if Clinton gets in she starts with the worst approval rating of any other incumbent, a major problem.
Good time for bad news.... I forgot to mention the benefit cap but P is right. The prisons are in melt-down and everyone agrees that the cuts in funding are a major factor. Look at any other aspect of public services and tell me if you can find one that is operating efficiently with adequate resources. Did you watch Panorama on the railways last night? It's not simply austerity, the government is retreating from responsibility in so many areas, has been for 20 years, and it is beginning to show. By the way, find me a major sector of the infrastructure that is wholly owned in UK. The commanding heights of the economy are no longer under our control.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 08 Nov 2016, 11:16

Talking about railways, this morning's local news says that the GWR electrification of the main line between Paddington and South Wales is getting too expensive so the electrification of the stretch of track between Bath Spa station and Bristol Parkway will be deferred. This is puzzling. The Severn tunnel was closed recently for electrification of the track and that's now complete. The electrification of the track coming west from Paddington is now well advanced. How will electric trains get to Cardiff if the Bristol-Bath stretch is not electrified? :confused:

Across the Atlantic we are seeing the American Revolution played out, the `people', led by General Trump, versus the `elite', led by Colonel Clinton. Whatever the outcome of the election, it's going to be dangerous for a while - if Clinton wins I can't see the Trumpeteers calling it a day and looking for a quiet life. A few days ago there was a panic at a Trump event when a man in the audience was said to have a gun - my first thought was "Why are they surprised, don't they all carry guns?" It seemed funny at first but really it's a worrying situation. One thing that's not being talked about because we're all so focused on Trump is that no matter who gets in there will be the usual hiatus during the changeover of power for a few weeks and that's when Putin will probably take advantage and surprise us all with a move in Europe or the Middle East.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Nov 2016, 04:53

Nothing is certain but at the moment it looks as though Trump is the new President. I shall reserve comment until we have seen confirmation but it isn't looking good.
Remember Harold, "Events Dear Boy"? News slipped out yesterday about tax receipts being down and necessitating extra government borrowing. The present reaction of markets all over the world is to get investments into safer havens. This is going to nothing for recovery of global trade. Tin hats on!
The confirmation hasn't come yet but barring a miracle Trump has achieved what looked impossible six months ago. The question now is what happens next? For a start, ignore the market reactions all over the world, this is typical market behaviour when faced with uncertainty. We have to wait now to see how much of his campaign rhetoric will become policy. Remember what some of these were.... He said he's scrap trade treaties and pursue an America First strategy, in other words tariff walls. He promised a wall between the US and Mexico. He also promised to send illegal immigrants back home. Does he attempt to gaol Hillary Clinton? What happens to the landmark Obama achievement in health services? Does he reverse the policies on abortion? So many questions hang over him and we know he is a loose cannon.
One thing is certain, political strategists all over the world will have to rethink their campaigns. Trump was right when he compared this election to Brexit, he campaigned, not on politics, but on massaging people's worst fears and pandering to dissatisfaction with the state of politics by promising change. Exactly the strategies that won the Leave vote here. I once forecast that the tectonic plates of politics were moving. I didn't realise that they were actually being destroyed. If you think this is overblown, consider the situation in Germany with the rise of opposition to migration. Think of Alex Tsipras in Greece pulling off what was thought to be impossible. It reminds me of the first rule of the Fight Game; there are no rules.....
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Big Kev » 09 Nov 2016, 07:41

It's official, Trump is the president. ..
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 09 Nov 2016, 07:50

Oh dear......
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 09 Nov 2016, 07:56

I am worried
If you keep searching you will find it

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 09 Nov 2016, 09:14

Why do I get the feeling that the world has become even more dangerous than it already is? Trump is President elect and will take up office in 100 days, he has both the Senate and the House of Representatives to back him as well. He can do what he wants, god help us. One light in the gloom, the Mexican currency has crashed so they wont be able to fund building the wall! :sad:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 09 Nov 2016, 11:55

I feel I should be writing something in this topic today but I'm not sure what. Does politics still exist or did it expire last night?

None of us could have been certain about the results of the UK/EU referendum or the US election but we all knew that the world has been going seriously wrong for some time now and that there was bound to be a dramatic reaction at some point soon. Now we've seen it. Political and business leaders have ignored the signs and failed to act and the undercurrent of unrest has burst through in the UK and USA. It has already happened in some other European countries and could be about to happen in Germany and France in next year's elections. It isn't just the worries about immigration and sovereignty. People are tired of hearing about fraud and bad behaviour `at the top'; they've had enough of being treated with contempt by company bosses who think customers will accept products that don't work and services that don't match the promised standard, and employees who work on zero hour contracts and see their pensions shrinking. All this adds to the pressure for a shift to the right and the emergence of an authoritarian regime - `the people' want someone tough who promises to put it all right, regardless of the other consequences: and so in America they've got Trump, in the UK we got the Brexiteers.

Later...This BBC article has some good graphics showing the breakdown of votes in the US election and the maps and bar charts showing the electoral college contributions help an understanding of the process. LINK At the time of writing, 46 out of 50 states have given their results. To win needed 270 electoral college votes: Trump so far has 278 (and therefore has won) against Clinton's 218. In contrast, Donald Trump has won 47.5% of the vote, with Hillary Clinton taking 47.7%.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Travis » 09 Nov 2016, 23:43

I mainly only come on this site for Forgotten Corners and the Steam engine posts (with the odd Marine Engineers) if the truth be known, if life was only so simple. Democracy can upset a group of inward looking groups at the drop of a hat. This has not been a good year for the left....

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