DIALECT AND WORD MEANINGS

[Stanley]

Probably true but why spoil a good urban myth.....
I used 'gonk' yesterday, army slang for a nap during the day....

[Tizer]

`Backronym' - that's a new one to me!
I'm reading a novel set in the USA around 1900 and mostly centred round the coal industry strikes. I saw a mention of the Shirtwaist Makers' Union and had to look up `shirtwaist', I've never heard the word before. Wikipedia states: "A shirtwaist was originally a separate blouse constructed like a shirt; i.e., of shirting fabric with turnover collar and cuffs and a front button closure. In the later Victorian period the term became applied more generally to unlined blouses with relatively simple construction and usually of a cotton or linen fabric, but often highly ornamented with embroidery and lace."

But the search also led me to this:
"On March 25, 1911, the Triangle Shirtwaist Company factory in New York City burned, killing 145 workers. It is remembered as one of the most infamous incidents in American industrial history, as the deaths were largely preventable–most of the victims died as a result of neglected safety features and locked doors within the factory building. The tragedy brought widespread attention to the dangerous sweatshop conditions of factories, and led to the development of a series of laws and regulations that better protected the safety of workers." LINK

[Tripps]

"Backronym' - that's a new one to me!"

I think it's a neologism. I think it's always better to know the difference between a fact and an urban myth. It will save future historians a lot of trouble.

[Stanley]

I had to look it up to be sure.... "A neologism (/niːˈɒlədʒɪzəm/; from Greek νέο- néo-, "new" and λόγος lógos, "speech, utterance") is the name for a relatively new or isolated term, word, or phrase that may be in the process of entering common use, but that has not yet been accepted into mainstream language." Nice one David.
Tiz, a very interesting period in US labour relations. Have a look for 'We Shall be All' by Melvyn Dubofsky, the story of the Wobblies, The International Workers of the World. I always thought that the main feature of the shirtwaister was that it finished at the waist and had no laps.

[Tripps]

My old Aunty used to use the expression (or so I thought), - there'll be wicks on the green, meaning there'll be trouble ahead. Never heard it before or since, and I spent a while trying find the origin- without success.

Now one of the posh ones in Downton Abbey has just said "there'll be wigs on the green before we're done". Still makes no sense to me. Time for another look.

PS - that didn't take long - Aunty Josie was right. I think it must be older than mid 19thC. I think wigs were earlier than that.

wigs on the green - violent or unpleasant developments, ructions; the term is recorded from the mid 19th century, and suggests literally a physical fight in which wigs may be dislodged or pulled off.

[Stanley]

Never heard that one David. Closest I have found to it is 'blood on the carpet'.

[Tripps]

The hunt for the wild kangaroo - which it seems, is actually a wallaby, in Gloucester, got me think about the expression 'kangaroo court'. What's one of them?
I don't know, and I doubt if anyone using the phrase knows either.

PS - What would they do with it of they caught it anyway? What creature will be next for police attention - Muntjac deer perhaps?

[Stanley]

Put it in clink David!
Morris suggests that 'kangaroo court' was originally used to describe ad hoc trials by inmates in a penal system to punish other prisoners who transgress their code. It's thought to have originated in Australia in the days of transportation when those transported had a great deal of autonomy even when they were theoretically prisoners. The word itself is of Aborigine origin and first appeared in print in 1773 in a memoir of the Banks Expedition.

[Stanley]

An old saying of my Dad's popped into my mind this morning and I was reminded of how casually cruel and pejorative some of the common sayings were 60 years ago. We would never dream of using them today but it was the way things were then. The saying was that my dad always said that if someone parted their hair in the middle they sat down to pee. The expression 'He sits down to pee' was a common contemptuous observation. I hope we are better informed and kinder today..... Another one was to say that you'd been 'Jewed' if someone cheated you. It was part of my vocabulary until I spent time with a Jewish family in NY and I promised I would never use it again!

[Bodger]

We were discussing pre match the Eng. /Aus game in the local , i used the expression it's "its muck or nettles " for England, of course no one understood what i meant, anyone know where it comes from ?

[Tripps]

I never heard that expression, and it's not in my slang dictionary.
Not sure that either option is too attractive.

[Stanley]

I've often heard it. I have always thought that it was used by someone on a hunter before they attempted a difficult ditch. A hiding to nothing.

[Tripps]

Ah - I never thought of that. Well done. - Reaches for his 'Irish RM video.

[Tizer]

Is it true that the phrase `the real McCoy' comes from the US 1920s Prohibition when a Scottish sea captain called McCoy carried Scotch to the Bahamas and sold it to the Americans who smuggled to the US?

[Stanley]

David, reach for your copy of George Sherston.....
That has always been my understanding Tiz.
Has anyone come across the word 'hornswoggled'?

[Cathy]

Don't know hornswoggled (it did come up on my phone tho, as I was typing it in).
I came across the word 'soothmoothers' today.

[Stanley]

It was one of my dad's words, probably Aussie origin. I found this on the web HORNSWOGGLED

[Stanley]

I have always been struck by the way my friends in the us can be very coy in their use of language. There is the aversion to the word rape so the oil is sold as Canola. Don't ever ask for breast of chicken, ask for white meat. The latest one I have noticed is the use of 'zerk' for what we would quite happily call a grease nipple! You don't believe me? Have a look at THIS.

[LizG]

Is it just me or is anyone else offended by the way the young people use the word fun? Since when was funner a word? "It was funner than the last time". What ever happened to 'good fun', 'funnier'? I could go on but I will just stare at my badge that says 'I am silently correcting your grammar', according to my husband I'm not very silent.

And don't get me started on 'would of, could of, should of'.

[Cathy]

I don't like the new phrase 'very fun', ... What's that??
And I know it seems to be widely accepted these days but I really don't like being called Mate or being referred to /included as one of the Guys!!

[Marilyn]

...and that new word "imporDant" heard in many adverts...it has a "t" in it, but why do they pronounce it as if it has a "d" in it?
And while we are on the subject, I also hate the way folk say "pacific" instead of "specific".

[Cathy]

Is that rap-talk as in rap-music? Can't imagine you listening to that tho...
The pronunciation must be to attract attention, a bit like those ads that have someone talking but you know that it's actually 'someone else's voice '.
Companies are trying all sorts of things these days.

[Stanley]

I have sympathy with all of you. One pronunciation trend which annoys me is the tendency to flatten 'e' into 'a'. Beds become 'bads' etc. Tortured vowels in the pursuit of 'talking proper' should be banned! The thing that distinguishes most dialect speech is the proper use of vowels. The flat 'a' immediately demotes you to 'provincial'. If you want to hear accurate rendition of vowels in spoken English go to Inverness. I think they speak the purest 'English' I have ever heard.

[Bodger]

Flat "a" I recall asking my primary school teacher why water was pronounced with an r in it, IE, warter, at home it was always watter to rhyme with Hatter. i also have a Natter when talking, but my wife who was born in Cheshire has a Chunner ?

[Tripps]

Stanley's reference to 'fast and loose' pulleys got me wondering if that was the origin of the phrase. Seems not, since it was used by Shakespeare in the 1500's which I guess would predate pulleys in the mill.

It's all about the vowels isn't it? My lad thinks I'm and embarrassment to him and mocks my pronunciation of bath whist he says 'baarth'. I of course insist that I'm correct, and he's now a softy southerner. Must say I've never said watter to rhyme with natter though, though I've done plenty of chunnering.