Barlick War Memorial Research

[PanBiker]

I went to the library yesterday with my new crib sheets and copied out of the Barlick index for the Craven Herald all the deaths other than suicides and obvious domestic ones. I now have a list from 1939 to 1946 with 109 entries with references to the articles with issue number and page and column details.

I copied odd references to interesting war related articles that I will have a look at as well as I work through the fiches. I reckon over 90% are directly related to deaths. I recognised quite a few names that I have already come across in the BET so there is a good chance that there will be others that I have not yet found.

Next job will be to compare my index list to the known names on the memorial and to the ones I have already found. Of course this will not be be exhaustive as there are a number of names on our memorial that I did not find in the BET. I suppose the local papers could only report what information they had been given. Anyway, it's a slightly different approach that may have some benefits.

The CH fiches held by the library are very difficult to read owing to how they were photographed. I found the index entry for my dad's B.E.M. award that he finally received in 1946. I checked the fiche for the article which was exactly where the index said it would be but it was unreadable as it was rather a dark exposure. If I zoomed it up enough to read it was out of the range of the lens focus. I will have to look at that in the original. Thankfully the exposures aren't all the same but having to pan up and down each page is going to be quite a toil. It will certainly be helpful though knowing where to look.

[PanBiker]

I have cross referenced the CH records of deaths in the index with my lists from the memorial and the names already found in the BET. Unfortunately only a couple of the entries in the index are directly related to military deaths, virtually all are domestic deaths from within the civilian population.

I have also checked the results returned from CWGC search with Barnoldswick used as the keyword as suggested by Peter. This approach has revealed further potential candidates for inclusion. Some are already commemorated on other memorials in far off places but this does not preclude them from being on ours as well. There will be some research to be done, (although I don't know how yet) as to their status with regard to Barlick at the time. The problem with the information from the Second World War is that it is not readily available in the public domain from a global search point of view.

My totals so far of potential additions from WWII are as follows:

2 Interred at Ghyll but not on the town memorial.
3 found from reports in the Barnoldswick and Earby Times (1939 -1946)
7 cross referenced from multiple search criteria from the CWGC website.

This gives a current total of 12 potentials from this theatre if all are subsequently confirmed. I have only scratched the surface of the Craven Herald so far as the fiches are almost impossible to read. I will probably switch to leafing the original copies that are available upstairs at the library.

So from Peters post in the other thread, we may well have well over 30 names to add. Of course this is by no means exhaustive yet as there are a lot of other conflicts since the end of WWII that we should look at also. One way forward on this might be to put an appeal out in the local papers for information of any local losses from later conflicts. Scanning the papers for casualties outside of a total war situation would be like looking for a needle in a haystack without knowing if it was actually there.

For my part in this venture, I would like to get to a point where I know I have done my best to ensure we are not leaving anyone out who should be remembered.

[Whyperion]

For subsequent military conflicts , official wars and otherwise , is there a general list of all service personel killed in action or service , as I think the overall number of UK persons is relatively small and might be the easiest way to search from ?

[PanBiker]

Oh, that it was all so easy! There are plenty of references to the numbers of deaths in each of the subsequent conflicts. One such link has already been posted here on the site. The Armed Forces site maintains such a list (link below). No doubt the statistics with the names and all other details will exist somewhere but that does not mean that it is available in the public domain. However, if anyone knows of such a detailed list and how I can access it, I would be very pleased to hear from them.

UK Armed Forces - Fatal Casualties Since 1945

[Stanley]

Bumped up

[PanBiker]

I have been giving some thought as to how to approach the research into military deaths since the end of the Second World War. To this end I have been doing quite a bit of searching across the various sites on the internet that I have bookmarked as potential information sources.

The CWGC maintains a roll of honour for all those killed up to the end of the Second World War. It is possible to search this archive using various search criteria including keywords such as "Barnoldswick" which will return all the records which have any reference to the town. This is the method used to turn up the extra names I now have as related in a previous post. This approach combined with the research into the local press coverage will probably be the best that can be achieved from records in the public domain for that particular period in history.

The same method of checking the local press could be used for later casualties but we are looking at a period spanning 60 years. I know from experience that it took me 4 months with the time available to me to scan the issues from 1939 -1946 of the Barnoldswick and Earby Times. Covering another 60 years, providing all the issues are available would take years and I feel is not the way forward even if I only looked for particular conflicts, it would still be a real can of worms

Of course the MOD have service records for everyone that have served in the armed forces with the exception of those that were lost to German bombing during the Blitz. The MOD has a duty of care to protect those records for a period of 25 years. No one can access them unless they are a direct Next of Kin who in the case of death can ask for the records. Clearly in 2012 a lot of the other records can be accessed as they are now clear of the 25 year rule. The only problem is that a request for access will only be processed from a name and not a place so unless you already know the name of the person you cannot get at the service record. The other major problem is that each request carries a charge of £30.00. They do suggest on their website that researchers should consider using resources that are free, such as The Armed Forces Memorial

Until recently there was no memorial for those who have lost their lives in service since the end of the Second World War. In order to address this problem The Armed Forces Memorial was conceived and created at the National Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire. This memorial contains the names of 16,000 members of the armed forces and all other associated services who have lost their lives whilst in service including losses attributed to terrorist activity and those who have been killed in training or on exercise.

In addition to the actual Armed Forces Memorial, it is the intention to produce written Rolls of Honour which for each Arm of Service will be housed in various locations in London. The Roll of Honour is also maintained electronically and can be searched, although again this is via name or service number and not by location or residence.

The link I put in my last post shows the number of fatal casualties from various theatres of operation since the end of WWII. The total here (up to Mar 2012) is 3492. These are the combat fatalities from what most people would regard as "war situations", the rest are made up of all other fatalities whilst in service. Are any of these Barlickers?

So, where do we stand. It seems clear to me that the approach should be from the top down so to say. We have a national memorial with all the names on, the records to produce that monument exist somewhere it is just how to access them that is the problem. I have picked up a couple of links along the way that I am going to try. There is a link for queries about the Roll of Honour and I have contact details for the National Memorial Arboretum where the memorial is situated. I am going to chase both these avenues up to see if there is a way of accessing the records for the information we need. I will post again when I have feedback from both of those.

Plan B will be to press release an appeal for information from relatives or anyone else who has information held in living memory of casualties from the town. If we have a name it can be checked with online resources, without the name we are lost unless their is a back door which is what I am hoping for.

The various websites I have been using are shown below:

CWGC - Searching for War Dead

The Management of Defence - Fatal Casualties since 1945

Veterans UK - Armed Forces Memorial

The National Memorial Arboretum

MOD - Personnel Records of Deceased Service Personnel

[PanBiker]

I emailed Graham Nolan who is the contact for the Armed Forces Memorial at the National Memorial Arboretum. I asked if there was any way of searching the Roll of Honour for the personnel on the memorial by town as you can with the CWGC Roll of Honour. Unfortunately it would seem that this is not possible due to the limited information made available at the present by the MOD. It is only possible to search if you have a name or service number.
Graham did send me some links though for quite a few interesting avenues of research that I will follow up in due course. I will post the links in this thread also when I have a bit more time as I am going out tonight to the presentation on Oradour sur Glane at the Barlick History Society meeting.
There seems to be information more freely available for the Balkans, Gulf War and Iraq than the smaller conflicts of the last 60 years although there is quite a bit of information been made available on one site he sent a link for with regard to the Paratroop regiments. I will post all the links later as they may well be of interest to others researching in similar areas.

Not the news I wanted to hear but a step nearer the best way to go.

[PanBiker]

I noticed from the BET that Bob Abel from Earby History Society has found yet another name for the Earby memorial. He discovered that Fred Norman Cook was killed in a plane crash but is not commemorated. His name will be added to the new commemorative stones with a dedication service at the Remembrance Sunday Service in November later this year.

It just goes to show that no matter how meticulous you search there is always the possibility of discovering more information. I suppose it will be no different with the Barlick quest.

[Thomo]

Very true Ian, have a look at the BWMG topic, how is it going with your research? At Earby, several blanks were included for the possibility of further inclusion. For the purpose of the book I am now looking at events before WW1, Waterloo and so forth, difficult but worth the effort.

[PanBiker]

WWII research ongoing although I have to say I have not been in the library of late as the weather has been just too good to spend my afternoons pouring over archived newspapers indoors. I have to balance it along with family commitments and my part time job. It would be somewhat easier if there were any online avenues of research open for this period of history and continuing up to date but up to press I have not found anything that will allow searching without a name to start with. The MOD simply has not made the information available searchable in the form we need.

I think when we put our proposal together we should look at a similar approach to Earby for adding our names. That way we can create scope for any future findings.

I notice that there has not been any developments with the Jubilee redevelopment at the Memorial Gardens, I assume that there is no money available to do the work. Despite having a commitment from the council for our project we will almost certainly have to pursue some funding opportunities ourselves, forty-odd names is not going to be cheap.

I think ultimately we need to have the project concluded in time for the centenary of the start of the First World War, that will give us just over two years to complete. I would hope to see us finalising our lists through the Autumn, certainly by the end of this year. We could then turn our attention of how best to add the names. We will need to get all the costings and estimates together as soon as possible in order to pitch for funding, council, local business support, Heritage Lottery and any other avenues that we can find, ideally we could do with funding in place by this time next year although it may take longer. If we could achieve this it would leave us a year to organise the actual additions to the area in conjunction with the council.We will also need to organise a dedication service for the new names sometime before August 2014.

That's my thoughts on how I see it panning out from here onwards. Any comments would be welcome.

[Thomo]

That Ian is just as I see it. Yet I have also been told that the funding is in place and that this will be done, but not to my face as it were. Like ice left in the sun, its difficult to get to grips with. I would like to know when this will all happen as I have it in mind to invite a rather special person to be present, and this person will need advance warning.

[PanBiker]

Pushing this project forward at such a pace without due process will stand a very great chance of the whole job going off half cocked. We certainly do not want to be in a situation where half a job is done just to have to go back 6 - 9 months later and add more names as they may come to light. It just does not make sense unless of course some persons are looking to score brownie points. I cannot see any other reason for rushing the project.

How can anyone say at this point that funding is in place when at this stage we do not yet know the size of the project. Unless of course the funding pot is bottomless which I doubt very much.

I fully appreciate the fact that both the Town and Borough Councils have pledged support to what we are trying to achieve. If they want to spend some money on the memorial this year they could make a start on what they already agreed to do and tidy the area up with some re-modelling. That would be a start and would be welcomed as part of the overall project. I do think though that after the jubilee celebrations are over we should seek clarification in writing from both the Town and Borough councils with regard to what their proposals are.

[Stanley]

If it's any consolation I have been known to comment in the past that any research or heritage project I have ever been associated with always finished up as a cavalry charge entirely due to bureaucrat's time tables. Par for the course I'm afraid.

[amber1]

How does one go about joining this group please ?

[Thomo]

Amber, see the other topic Barlick War Memorial Goup, and welcome.

[PanBiker]

I'm posting this in the research thread as it may have a knock on for the memorial.

I have just completed my annual distribution of the remembrance crosses down at Ghyll over the last couple of days. As seems to be the norm each year I tend to loose one or two that are on my list and find an odd one or two more. This year I have found five more who are not already on my list. All are additions to existing family headstones. I have found three from 1914/18 and two from WWII.

The details below are what I have so far from the headstones.

Francis Crossley - Killed in France - 26/10/16

Harry Hodkinson (need to check back for more details)

Albert Price Gill - Premont Cemetery France - 13/11/18

[hr]

William H. Quayle (Bill) - Lost on HM Submarine "USURPER" - October 1943 - age 35 years

W.H. Quayle is not currently on our memorial

CWGC records this:

Rank:
Stoker 1st Class
Service No:
P/KX 146834
Date of Death:
12/10/1943
Age:
34
Regiment/Service:
Royal Navy

H.M. Submarine Usurper
Panel Reference
Panel 78, Column 2.
Memorial
PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL

Additional Information:

Son of William and Jane Elizabeth Quayle; husband of Mary Quayle, of Barnoldswick, Yorkshire.

[hr]

Flt Sgt Pilot Malcolm Mason Stembridge - Killed on Air Ops - 31/3/44 Interred Fladun Cemetery Nuremburg.

CWGC has the following information:

Rank:
Flight Sergeant
Trade:
Pilot
Service No:
1452226
Date of Death:
31/03/1944
Age:
21
Regiment/Service:
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve

51 Sqdn.
Grave Reference
Joint grave 4. H. 9-10.
Cemetery
HANOVER WAR CEMETERY

Additional Information:

Son of Eli and Mary Stembridge, of York; husband of Kathleen Stembridge, of York.

A slight discrepancy between the headstone information (where interred). Stembridge is not the name on the family plot so I am assuming this young man was the son of a married daughter from the family. Recorded on the family plot but not from Barlick a s the CWGC data reveals.necessarily from Barlick.

I have not checked the three from WWI yet, I was hoping Thomo may be able to check as I feel sure he will already have the information on these three.

Our submariner though may well be a potential.

[Thomo]

Hi Ian. We have 1 there that is not on the memorial: WW2 Malcolm Mason Stembridge. I will have an in depth look at this later. I am 75% of the way through rebuilding the WW2 database and will include Stembridge into to the research.

[PanBiker]

CWGC has Flt Sgt Stembridge as from York but worth a further look. I was wrong about W.H Quayle who is indeed on the main obelisk. Anyway I now know where they are at Ghyll so will visit each year.

The strange thing about Flt Sgt Stembridge is that he is recorded on a stone right at the side of the footpath in the lower part of the cemetery quite close to where Wilfred is. I must have walked past this literally dozens of times and have never noticed the inscription before.

[Thomo]

Ian, do you have any of the other names that are on that stone?

[Thomo]

Got him Ian, his Mother was Mary Ellen Bailey of Barnoldswick who married Eli Stembridge of York at St Andrews Methodist Church, Mosley St in 1921. Malcolm Mason Stembridge was born at York in 1922. Malcolm married Miss Kathleen M Powell at York St Mary's in 1943.

[Thomo]

This morning whilst putting some stuff together for the event at Ghyll Church on the 4th of August I came across this:-




This triggered a check on the Town War Memorial, I knew that there was a Mitchell on it, but it isn't this one, this is William Mitchell, buried in Ghyll Cemetery. The one that got away it would appear, but not forever, there is room for him on the new panel.

[PanBiker]

Where is this in the cemetery Peter? I don't have him on my list and can't understand how I have missed a CWGC headstone over the the years I have been doing the crosses, these are the easiest to spot and stand out a lot more than the ones appended to family plots.

---------------------------------

Later, been cross checking my list and I do have him on another tab in my spreadsheet, not realised that he was not the same as the already existing on the memorial though

[Thomo]

Thanks Ian, it took me by surprise as well, I will mail you the updated copy of Ghyll burials later. There is to be a meeting at Ghyll this coming Wednesday at 1600, these people need all the help they can get, and if possible I will be there. Research into William will begin shortly, I also now have in place all of the bits to make a detailed plan of both the Cemetery and the Churchyard.

[Thomo]

The one on the Memorial Is Arthur Mitchell, buried in France. This one is William Mitchell born 1886, Son of William and Mary Jane Mitchell nee Standring. William married Jane Alice Hall in 1904 and they had 3 children. He died of cancer in hospital at Leicester on the 17th of July 1917. Service No.45874 of the Northumberland Fusiliers, the Ghyll UD plot reference is I 31. Bob Careswell has sent me a copy of the Ghyll Cemetery basic plan, this bears little relation to the plot No's. that we have. I am working on a new plan of the Churchyard and Cemetery using a 1960's aerial photograph as a base.

[PanBiker]

Yes the plot layout is confusing to say the least. It seems to work in some areas of the cemetery but not others. I wonder if they re-enumerated each section as it was opened up? I would be very interested in any practical and functional layout that you can come up with Peter.