DIALECT AND WORD MEANINGS

[Stanley]

When I was in the army I was with lads from Birkenhead and they used 'gear' to describe anything that was good. I have never come across this anywhere else. Any thoughts?

[Tizer]

I'm familiar with `gear' used to mean good, but then I spent 7 years in Liverpool which may be where I was hearing it.

"When does a ginnel become a snicket "

In our Somerset village what I would have called a ginnel in Blackburn is here called`The Twist' (and it's straight!). In another village we lived in, the sharply twisting main street was called `Straight Bit'. Regarding Tripps's `back entry' (so to speak) and Bodger's comment, did you hear about Mitt Romney referring to looking out of the back side of 10 Downing Street during his visit to London? When I was an editor I often had to explain to American authors what `backside' meant in Britain!

[Tripps]

Gear:- I worked not far from Birkenhead for a summer, in the late 1950's and the word was in constant use - that would be about the time you heard it? In contrast I worked in Liverpool for several years in the late 1970's, and don't remember it being used so much, if at all.
Tizer - I hesitated to use that expression in view of the post above it. I thought I'd got away with it.

[Wendyf]

"Gear" came into common use in the early sixties with the popularity of the Beatles etc.

[Tizer]

Tripps, it was nearer to 1970 when I was in Liverpool. Sorry to have sullied your name for posteriority!

[Stanley]

That's right David, demob group 54/06. Wendy, it looks as though the Beatles got it from Birkenhead.

[EileenDavid]

I remember it being used "just the gear" meaning it was great and the right thing to wear. However the darkside now I believe is that gear means drugs. Eileen

[Stanley]

Funny language Eileen. Used as a descriptor it's good, as a noun it's bad. No wonder people think it's hard to learn!

[Stanley]

Had an enquiry from Chris Aspin about the origin of 'jumble' in connection with place names. Nearest I could get is that it's a modern usage.
I was wondering about 'munch' as well. Funny how a word catches your attention. This one much older, Webster quotes usage in 14th C and probably from late Middle English 'monchen' to chew or masticate.

[Stanley]

Two words caught my Eye yesterday. 'Saunter' for leisurely walking. Where did that one come from? Then I came across 'dog-cart' and a suggestion that at one time it was illegal to have a dog in the carriage with you. Why a dog cart?

[Wendyf]

I think that a dog-cart was originally a 2 wheeled carriage pulled by one horse which had a box behind the seats for your gun dogs. Your servant or "tiger" sat facing backwards on the box. At some point backwards facing seats replaced the dog box and the name came to cover any 2 wheeled, one horse carriage with seats back to back.

[Whyperion]

One of these on line dictionaries Probably from Middle English santren, to muse, with second note of mention that middle english is around C15th. To me it sounds more of french origin.

[Stanley]

Wendy, as soon as I read your post I realised that I had read that somewhere. Thanks.
Reading Rewards and Fairies threw up a couple more words. 'Gorm' as in 'take no gorm' or 'gormless', (he spells it 'gaum'). And 'chimney towel' which was used for improving the draught up a flue, makes sense especially if it was made of leather.

[Tizer]

On the One Show the other night the Lancashire gardener Christine (is she from somewhere like Rishton?) was visiting John Humphrys in his garden. He said something critical about the garden and she said "Give over, is it `eck!" I wonder how `give over' came to mean `stop it'?

[Stanley]

For that matter, where did the 'heck' come from? 'Give over' (or give up) I can understand, it's a very old usage, 'give' as an exhortation to act. 'Give way' as an order to rowers is another.

[Stanley]

I'm sure we've done this one before at some time but I can still remember my mother flopping in the chair, particularly on a muggy day when she had been doing something strenuous and saying "I'm fair powfagged!". Was this just local? She also used to tell us that we were "worse than dirt-down", no doubt a reference to the fly in the mill. My dad's Australian version of this was "You're worse than the flies!"

[Stanley]

Have you ever gone for a 'slape pint'?

[Bruff]

I could imagine 'heck' being a corruption of 'hell'. Mind you, the fact 'heck' is made of of 'he' and 'ck' means it may very well be a mix of 'hell' and well, something worse ending in 'ck'.

Not unusual for mild curses/oaths/outbursts to have their origins in more serious and offensive profanity. 'Berk' is from the rhyming slang 'Berkeley Hunt'.

Just noted 'gormless' up there. I think I might have mentioned this before on here, but in Sheffield they say someone is 'gormy'. Unlike 'gormless' which when it was ever used within my earshot in Barlick was a rather gentle rebuke for comical ineptitude in Sheffield, 'gormy' is far worse. I once accused a Sheffield-born friend of mine whilst living there of being gormy and she hit the roof and got upset. It's more used to suggest someone is really stupid.

Richard Broughton

[Stanley]

Richard, isn't it a shock when there is a clash of language like that. My worst moment was when I commented that I thought I'd been 'jewed' to my companion in NY. It never struck me that she might find it offensive because she was Jewish! I know, it sounds crass but I didn't even associate the word with the religion, it was just a word I had always used for being swindled. (I haven't made the same mistake since!)

[Stanley]

My reading on the Cornish tin industry threw up an interesting fact yesterday. For many years the industry had 'proof houses' where tin was assayed for purity and certified before going forward for sale. This process was known as 'coinage'. The name came from the fact that a small wedge of the metal was cut off the corner with a sharp chisel and that was the sample for testing. French for corner is 'coin' and hence the term, 'coinage'. What interests me is that such a wedge would be ideal for placing in a die and striking to produce a 'coin' in the monetary sense. I wonder if this is the origin of the word?

[EileenDavid]

Quimperle which is in Brittany is also known as Quornwall and the French spoken here is a mix between French and Cornish. I remember the saying " I have been Jewed " wasn't it from when all money lenders used to be Jews? I don't think it's offensive never thought of it as religious! Having said that there used to be some sweets called jew jews and these are no longer around. The worlds gone mad. Eileen

[Tizer]

Brewer's agrees with Stanley on the assay sample being the origin of using coin and coinage as terms for money. Collin's says it ultimately derives from Latin `cuneus' meaning `wedge'. Here is a photo of an information board on tin assay that can be seen in the Royal Cornwall Museum, Truro..


...and this a an example of the blowpipe set that was used for flame tests to detect metals (costing £1 12s 6d!)

[Tripps]

Isn't there a word "quoin" used by builders and especially bricklayers? Must be related to the above?

[PanBiker]

Indeed Tripps, quoins are the cornerstones of buildings often used as a decorative feature.

[Stanley]

Tiz, thanks for that. I didn't look in Webster's so as not to muddy the waters. 'Quoin' was also used to describe a corner of a building that had been cut away for access. I read somewhere that this had to be done on Wapping at Townhead to allow the big new boiler for Bancroft to get round the bend.