POLITICS CORNER

[PanBiker]

So the PLP has turned traitor on their elected leader, the same bloke that was elected with the largest majority of any leader ever? I hear that they thought it would be a perfect coup with so many defecting that Jeremy would not have enough supporters to sign his nomination. That's a mistake, party lawyers have confirmed that as existing leader he automatically goes on the ticket. Any challengers should have no problem of getting the 51 backers for their nominations. The common cry seems to be that he is totally unelectable. I would ask on what grounds do they base that, it has never been put to the test. Do they not see that the Tories are on the back foot and this is the perfect opportunity to build a better party built on clear socialist principles.

The Labour Party should not want to form the next government anyway, that's the one that's going to get the blame, leave it to the Tories to take the flak then hit them when they are down.

Many of the dissenters are already being taken to task by their constituency parties who are strongly suggesting that they get back in line.

When Jeremy has secured his second mandate from the members the dissenters should be offered a simple choice, get back in line or be deselected. A few of these should sharpen the minds. Of course they could all defect completely and form a new wet version of the party. Problem there is that it has already been tried with "New Labour" all that got the party faithful that elected them and the country was the shoreing up of student loans rather than what was promised in the manifesto and a War based on blatant lies. If they have to go, (one way or the other) so be it. It's sometimes hard to forge what you actually need. More of the model that brought us the welfare state and the NHS, all delivered when the country was in a far worse position than it is now. If it could be done then it can be done now.

[Stanley]

What a splendid post Ian! I agree totally. I can remember when the trouble came from a rabid left wing, now it appears to be from the right and this suggests to me that the original instigation came from disgruntled Blairites hankering for the good old days of the ill fated New Labour idea which was that the way to power (which is all they were interested in) was by moving to the middle ground and going for the middle class vote. Unfortunately they have managed to convince those elements of the PLP who saw re-election as more important than getting the Party back on track again with clear Social Democratic principles, aims and objectives. Many of these have been totally blinded by the suggestion embedded in opposition to Jeremy from all quarters, inside and outside the Party, that he is 'unelectable'. As you so rightly say, winning the next election is the last thing anyone wants, probably including the Tory brexiteers!
A common theme of both these factions is what borders on contempt for the sections of society they should be aiming to represent many of whom are members. Blair cut the connection between the grass roots and the Party when he centralised collection of membership fees on London, remember the complaint of Scottish Labour that they were regarded by London as an accommodation address rather than an autonomous party? The same applies now to every Labour branch in England and Wales. In effect, this present struggle is a fight between the PLP in Westminster and the grass roots membership. I stopped my membership of the Party when that change was made and I saw the imminent demise of the local parties and the rise of Blair who I didn't trust long before he got into his stride and completely ruined our reputation. I shall be renewing my membership of the Party today and in any vote will back Corbyn.
10 minutes later. I have renewed my membership and feel that I have done something concrete! My main reason for doing so is that I want to support Jeremy. This isn't to say I am totally convinced that he can hack it, up to now he has lacked the steel I remember from the old days but there are signs that he is growing into the job. No more Mr Nice Guy when it comes to internal opposition to what should be the project, to get some firm social principles down on paper and endorsed by the party.
Meanwhile, in another part of the woods..... A fascinating meeting of the EU in Brussels. Farage confirms what an absolute shallow bastard he is by attacking the hand that feeds him his gravy. Cameron moves amongst his old acquaintances being patted on the back and patronised. The other members make it quite clear what they think about Farage, and openly accuse him of lying, particularly on immigration. Merkel spells it out for the EU; no cosy back room chats, no special treatment, the EU resents being powerless until the UK parliament ratifies the referendum vote and triggers Article 50 at which point ALL the power moves to the EU and they will hammer the UK to discourage any waverers within the EU. All totally to be expected, you poke a tiger in the eye with a sharp stick, what do you expect?
In the UK, thanks to the colossal mismanagement by Cameron, we have no effective government. This is banana republic country and all of it was avoidable.
Give me my due, I forecast that the Tories would implode but admit I thought it would be an organic process due to lack of principle and venality. I didn't see a catastrophe on this scale coming. Even I didn't think they were this stupid!
Later.... Noticeable that the Tory press are unanimous in urging Labour to ditch Corbyn. Now I wonder why that is happening?

[plaques]

Tony Blair “misrepresented” Iraq’s chemical weapons threat, former UN inspector Hans Blix has claimed.
BBC.
BBC programme tonight. It is being suggested that Tony Blair was slightly amiss with the chemical weapons claim that was his main argument for invading Iraq. Now who would have thought that British Prime Ministers would collude to deceive the British public by telling them half truths. This sort of thing would never happen now-a-days. Would it?? Please???

[chinatyke]

This is a copy of an e-mail I received today from a friend, he says it much better than I ever could:

Good afternoon,

I cannot believe the the stream of hate that is being directed at those of us who voted to leave the EU. Apparently we are all working class racists, uneducated or old gits that don't care about the younger generation's future.

The true reality is that most leavers voted to restore democracy to this country, so that the younger generation do not have to live their lives ruled by faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels that no one voted for and cannot vote out.

As for blaming the older generation, please consider that many have been waiting 40 years for the chance to have their say. Many were the same age as you are today when our democracy began to be taken away from us.

As for assuming that education indicates intelligence that is ignorance and arrogance at its extreme. Just think a little before you violently demonstrate and try to take what was a free vote out of the hands of the majority. Most of you have spent your short adult lives being indoctrinated by left wing teachers and lecturers. You will find that as you get older many of your left wing ideals will not pass the test of time, or of real life.

You need to stop throwing insults and crying that it is unfair when you don't get your way. The people have spoken; now be thankful that we live in a democracy that allows you to speak up. If you know anything at all about the EU you will know that three recent referendums undertaken by Belgium, Holland and Ireland all rejected an EU constitution but were ignored by the unelected elite. Some democracy eh?

So let us all get together, throw away your prejudices, work hard, taking this opportunity for a vibrant and a prosperous future without whining.

Peking Pete

[plaques]

The news if full of the suggestion that there may be an election later in this year. It may be well to remind people that we now have a Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. Ie Parliaments will last for five years. Fixed Term.. To break this fixed term there must be quote...

'If the House of Commons resolves "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government", an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves "That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government". This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first.'
'If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election".'

Its hard to see that the the Conservatives would be willing to say " we are a bag of rubbish, lets have a new election".
or that Labour will let them off the hook until the referendum business is sorted out while they themselves are in turmoil is difficult to imagine. The picture is that we are looking at Terminator 2 where the Conservatives will reconstitute themselves and blunder through to the bitter end.

[plaques]

Chinatyke, why don't you get your friend 'Peking Pete' to sign up to OG. It is always interesting to hear other peoples views.

[chinatyke]

I've passed on your invitation to him and links and screenshots. We'll see if he takes the opportunity.

[Bruff]

Hey that’s an hilarious post there from that fellow in Peking. A classic of its type that makes a plea for an end to name calling and stereotyping that then wades straight in to name calling and stereotyping. Magnificent! They even got ‘left-wing teachers and lecturers’ in there. Brilliant.

Still, a few random thoughts which I expect to be ignored in their entirety by the poster though they’ll suffice for the record. And I suppose it’ll be taken as proving the general point but hey ho.

Q1: The ‘faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels that no one voted for and cannot vote out’ are the same as the ‘faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall that no one voted for and cannot vote out’. Discuss.

Now we’ve had a laugh (well, I’ve had a laugh), can someone please explain how I can vote for and vote out civil servants in this country? I mean, folk do realise ‘Brussels’ here might be the administrative arm of the EU just as the UK’s civil service is the administrative arm of Westminster don’t they? It’s amazing isn’t it? The very people who the leavers are expecting to now do all the donkey work in delivering on Brexit are the ‘faceless, unelected bureaucrats…… that no one voted for and cannot vote out’ they disparage. Further evidence that they have not the first clue how things work here let alone in ‘Brussels. But then I knew that; I asked the leavers on their stand in the main street here as I reported the other day. Clueless.

It might though be the Commissioners they are talking about. But then I can vote for them and vote them out. By association. Just as I vote in and vote out the UK Government by association. The Commissioners are elected by the European Council (elected) and MEPs (elected). Just as, unless I lived in Witney, I didn’t directly elect the current PM so I didn’t directly elect any Commissioner as I leave this to other elected officials. And I no more vote directly for the Head of the Commission’s various DGs than I vote directly for Ministers here. Oh, and as for the cries from some folk that nobody knows the names of all these functionaries well, this just means you can’t read or you’re too lazy to find out, probably both. Look, I agree that education doesn’t equal intelligence but sometimes if a person is not to make a fool of themselves then a certain amount of education can serve them well.

On the supposed rejection by voters of the EU constitution then ignored by an unelected elite, this is far more complex than that pithy remark suggests. If anything, it’s a demonstration of the ridiculousness of referendums for anything other than deciding the national flag: a binary choice fine; a complex interconnected issue, not so much. Brussels did not ignore the Irish etc. They went away and revised the Treaty in light of its rejection (which might be seen as a democratic thing to do). The Irish Government then re-ran the referendum, and it was carried. An unelected elite ignored nothing. The issue to moan about here is the tendency by Governments (Brussels has run a referendum on nothing) to see referendums as never-endums, until you get the result you want.

And don’t get me started on democracy…….

Let’s be clear: I support the result of this referendum (though on the wrong side of it) and want it seen through as soon as possible. And sometimes people have to be told they don’t know what they are talking about or challenged on their assumptions. No one, no one at all, should be immune from this.

Richard Broughton

[Whyperion]

I think that Peking Pete Email is a bit of a Round Robin that has been going around I'm certain I have seen it elsewhere. My thinking is if the EU does not want the
potential of the grey area days , then wont Article 50 need some kind of amendment or revision / addition.

[Tizer]

Thanks for that Richard. I suspect that Peking Pete is one of those who would want to hold a national referendum to decide whether tea bags should be round or square. They haven't learnt the word `representation' yet.

[Stanley]

"Let’s be clear: I support the result of this referendum (though on the wrong side of it) and want it seen through as soon as possible. And sometimes people have to be told they don’t know what they are talking about or challenged on their assumptions. No one, no one at all, should be immune from this"
Exactly Richard. Thanks for saying that.
What is exercising me at the moment is the fact that I detect a concert party in the anti Corbyn furore. I can't believe there is a conspiracy between the disloyal elements on the Labour Party, the Tory press and the Prime Minister but the increasingly hysterical torrent of abuse and calls for Jeremy to commit political suicide when he has already said he is quite happy to go through a selection process and have the issue decided by the Labour Membership has all the attributes of an organised campaign. What is driving them all?
I can't help thinking it is fear, but fear of what? Could it be that speaking the truth and being guided by the electorate is such a bad thing? I have had my doubts about the way Jeremy has acted but never about his honesty and veracity. It looks as though he is firm in his resolve to go through the selection process and I hate to think of the pressures that are being applied to try to make him change his mind. Just think of the number of people who are digging into his past to try to find a smoking gun.
My view is that the course should be clear. Nothing should be done to allow the Tories to scuttle before their term is played out. Their feet should be held to the fire and they alone should take the flak of the fall out from the Cameron Catastrophe. The Labour party should stop ripping itself apart and talking of the destruction of the party. They should stop all talk of re-election and concentrate on getting a fresh mandate for their Leader, whoever that is, by going to the membership. Then force discipline on the MPs, if necessary by de-selection of anyone who does not toe the line. Then set out clear principles, aims and objectives and only then start campaigning for 2020.
As for the challenger. I'm afraid I don't see Angela Eagle as a person who is dedicated to completing the rescue of Labour from the disaster of the Blair era. If Labour is to survive and prosper it has got to get back to core principles based on the needs and desires of the most disadvantaged people in our society. That is where the roots lie and for me Jeremy Corbyn is the best choice. I will never forgive him if he folds, he must go forward and contest the Leadership. I think he will win, I hope so, but here is the crucial thing, I am happy to let the membership decide.
Later after my walk.... A thought struck me. The Tory line at the moment is that they are working though succession and dealing with Brexit in a normal rational matter. This is quite obviously untrue, they are shattered by the result and at a complete loss what to do. They can't make any moves until after the Party Conference in October. Their strategy has to be to hold the line until then. What could be more effective than focussing attention on what they tell us is the dissolution of the Labour Party. To the extent that Cameron himself joined in from the Dispatch Box yesterday, unheard of! Their tame media is only too happy to oblige as the Labour contortions are so public and such easy news. What could be more natural than to attack an old Lefty. Hang in there Jeremy, I suspect you are in a stronger position than anyone suspects!

[Bruff]

I was reading about fishing yesterday and the renegotiation that will be needed with respect to fishing rights and policies when we leave the EU. Let me just say that this is not a straightforward issue at all. Goodness knows what it’s going to be like when we get into the really tricky stuff.

Richard Broughton

[chinatyke]

And sometimes people have to be told they don’t know what they are talking about or challenged on their assumptions. No one, no one at all, should be immune from this.- Richard Broughton

A good reason for honestly informing the electorate of the facts before holding a referendum. I agree with Stanley, this referendum should never have happened. The people in power should not have left a major decision to "people who don't know what they are talking about" who then used their vote as a protest.

[Bruff]

Completely agree. I’ve been banging on about this for months. Should never, ever have been put to a referendum. I was reading a comment the other day where a leave voter said they’d voted so because they were pee-ed off at their pension age being raised to 67. But it’s done now, and folk will have to live with whatever consequences arise.

Anyway, faceless, unelected bureaucrats that nobody voted for and nobody elected. Here is the task facing the faceless, unelected bureaucrats that nobody voted for and nobody elected in Whitehall.

There is 40 years of legislation: this is 13,000 Regulations or so amounting to around 80,000 pages (before anyone howls that this just shows the scale of the bureaucracy from the EU, remember this is simply a couple of numbers absent any context/comparator/assessment at all. No one sensible can conclude any bureaucratic measure from this). This body of statute has to be gone through line by line often word by word. The UK will have to decide what it wants to keep, what it has to keep (which will be decided by the terms of exit), what it wants to discard, and what it will need to amend. All of this will require impact assessments, public consultation documents, evaluation of the consultation documents, parliamentary time, handling strategies, explanatory memorandums and so on and so on. Every single trade agreement we have via the EU will have to be renegotiated and every single trade agreement we intend to have with others outside of the EU will have to be negotiated. We will have to negotiate too with the EU on any trade deal we might like with them. And all the time, the usual work of Government outside of areas where the EU has competence (education, pensions and welfare, health, defence, justice, local government policy, devolution, treasury stuff, you know…. most stuff) has to carry on as well.

This will take years and years and years. Though we all knew that when we voted didn’t we?

Richard Broughton

[PanBiker]

So Boris has decided to dodge the bullet and offer up Gove into the firing line. This is probably a calculated maneuver with a big sweetener after the event for Gove who is probably the most hated man in the Tory party. He has poisoned every thing he has ever come into contact with and has probably realised that his days are numbered anyway. Why not take the flak for this as well? Boris will bide his time until after the break with the EU, take the leadership and give Gove a backhander for his exit into political oblivion. Rank and file Tory membership clones will not like it but hey ho, this is how the Lords of the Universe operate.

[Whyperion]

clear principles, aims and objectives.

Is this more difficult when there are financial constraints.

Clause 4 always was a reasonable framework to work within. I have a feeling it was the EU (or is it the IMF) that sort of muttered that a max % of GDP should come from
state(?Public) sector enterprise or expenditure - hence the drive to privatisation. Rather silly really as to the consumer a £1 spend on the gas no real difference if its to local government, central govt state owned, or private (except private considerably more confusing ).

[Tizer]

Every single trade agreement we have via the EU will have to be renegotiated and every single trade agreement we intend to have with others outside of the EU will have to be negotiated. We will have to negotiate too with the EU on any trade deal we might like with them.

And, according to The Times, we no longer have people in place with the required expertise in negotiating because we haven't needed them for all those years; apparently we need to find or train hundreds of negotiators...quickly.

[Whyperion]

We hire consultants from PwC, probably Romainians

[Whyperion]

Looks like Theresa May might get the nod for leader of the Tories. From what she says I am worried for some sections of the community.
I don't think it would be easy for Corbyn to run any kind of Labour as a delivering opposition to a Con Govt led by her. (too many shades of Foot/Thatcher).
Needs someone who can spot the nastiness (Massive more privatisation in essential public services for one ) under her popularist appeal , but I'm uncertain whom that would be.

Read if you like, makes a change from PE http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/30/pr-c ... up-part-i/ I suppose other alternative conspiracy theories are avalible

[Stanley]

It takes a lot to surprise me these days but the news of Bojo scuttling out of the back door caught me off balance. If anyone had told me that the he would manage to make his lookalike Donald Trump, look like a politician I wouldn't have believed it. Even now I am not clear what has happened behind the scenes. Gove seemed to be saying that he had withdrawn his support because during the consultations they had been having he realised that Johnson was too thick to hack it and hadn't enough parliamentary support. If that was an agreed strategy managed by Boris it seems a bit extreme. In effect, the appearance is that Gove defenestrated Johnson. Nobody can come back as a future candidate or even a fit person for election as MP after that. Meanwhile Theresa sails on serenely in complete contrast. Over the road the public crucifixion of Corbyn goes on unabated, Eagle hangs back on a lame excuse and I suspect it's to give the constant drip of acid on Jeremy longer to work and break him.
Meanwhile, on C4 news last night there was an interesting discussion between Peter Hitchen, Bob Harris and a lady journo who I am afraid was a bit lightweight. Their views on what was happening were interesting and of the three I liked Bob Harris' contribution best. He drew a direct parallel with the fall of the Roman Empire saying that what happened there was that the leaders ignored the constitution, made policy to suit themselves and ignored the mob (I grossly simplify obviously but that was the thrust.) I can see what he means but I would go back to something I have repeated interminably. We are trying to govern a 21st century society with 19th century methods. Politics and the ethics of those elected is largely broken. I imagine there are good men and women in Parliament who are absolutely distraught and perhaps it's time we heard from them!
What's going to happen? God knows and he/she is temporarily unavailable. The only thing in politics I am reasonably certain of at the moment is that the one political party that seems to have retained their integrity is the SNP and they have managed that by uniting in rejection of Westminster and all its works, there may be a clue there.
Meanwhile, the full enormity of the Cameron Catastrophe unfolds as the week progresses (that's right, only a week since we got the result!), Mark Carney yesterday asked the reporters at the BofE news conference if any of them still thought he had been exaggerating when, in the run up to the vote, he laid out a bleak picture of the possible economic repercussions and nobody spoke up. The Bank's problem is of course that they have no tools in the box apart from a further lowering of interest rates (possibly going negative!) and chucking helicopter money at the economy in the form of Quantitative Easing. (We used to call that devaluation of Sterling) Ossie's 'economic miracle' unravels as the politicians make fools of themselves.
On an entirely different matter (Although I did hear one theory yesterday that Corbyn was waiting for this so he could attack Labour's Right Wing) Chilcot is to be published next week and from the tone of the Panorama programme (and one suspects they know more than they can say) there are going to be some brutal assessments which will vindicate everyone who opposed the incursion into Iraq. One thing is certain, it will do nothing to reassure the electorate that their politicians are trustworthy.
To quote Trump.... "What the hell is going on?"

[plaques]

Chilcot is to be published next week and from the tone of the Panorama programme (and one suspects they know more than they can say) there are going to be some brutal assessments which will vindicate everyone who opposed the incursion into Iraq.

Jack Straw is already getting his preemptive retaliation in first. Saying that it is the Trotskyists who are controlling Corbyn that is causing all this trouble in the Labour party. I'll bet you didn't know you were one of the Trotskyist mob did you Stanley? It sounds a bit like we are moving down the McCarthyism route to blacken Corbyn's name.

[Tizer]

Exciting times! Gove stabs BoJo, then Heseltine and Clarke stab Gove. You could almost hear them adopting a Captain Mainwaring voice and saying "You stupid boy!" Step forward Theresa May, PM in waiting (barring any Macmillan `Events, Dear Boy'). It should be fun when we get May, Sturgeon, Merkel and Clinton together. I've always thought the world would be a better place if run by women. And the Queen has reminded us "I'm still alive" post-Brexit.

As for the Labour Party, I find it difficult to conjure up any optimism. As you know, I don't have loyalty to any political party and that means I have a perspective from outside the bubble. In `97 I voted Labour, thinking that Tony Blair might bring change and a revitalised Labour Party but I very quickly realised I'd made a big mistake, Blair was a left-leaning Conservative at heart. When Corbyn became leader I thought he might sort out the party but again it's all gone wrong, he'd be at home on the union picket lines and the protest marches but not leading a UK government. The Blairites should split off and form a new party and leave Corbyn to try and nurture the old-style Labour Party for what it's worth, but instead they want to keep the old name and kick out Corbyn. Mind you, I can't see the Blairites appealing to the British folk who've just voted against immigration etc. So from my outside perspective it looks like little chance for Labour in the coming years. But I'd like them to prove me wrong.

[Whyperion]

I realise I should have twigged BoJo was flaky. He went AWOL at least once when the Mayor was needed in one of those snow brings chaos to london situations, I may have written about it on one of the weather reports here, no co-ordination in London on roads or public transport and distinct lack of saying anything (right, wrong or just re-assuring) I said on another forum I expected the present London Mayor to do much the same (but I was lying there !! - I expect Sadquiq to be seen , heard and action in such a suitation - I wonder if he regrets resigning as MP now ?).
Better place when the world run by women - I never belived that - most power females are pretty intolerable, and difficult to reason with. (they do get results though - one might not agree with them)

[Tripps]

So complicated isn't it? Iain Dale on LBC has just commented that Gove's speech was 5000 words, and took 40 minutes, and has (allegedly) been put together in the last 24 hours. He was Chief of Staff for David Davis during his leadership bid against David Cameron. He said that his speech took a lot longer to write, and went through several drafts and revisions.
I think Gove ticks all the boxes for the title of 'viper'.

[Stanley]

I wouldn't argue with you David and I suspect many Tories wouldn't either. He hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of being chosen.....
As for being a Trotskyite.... who cares what Jack Straw thinks?
I am not even a Corbynite but I recognise an honest man when I see one, no matter how flawed as a Machiavellian politician. He was elected by due process and that should be respected by anyone and the People's Choice given a chance. it's called loyalty. Forget about the spoiler £3 members, they are a tiny minority. The furore over the press conference is a case in point. The stirrers immediately pile in and accuse Jeremy of being an anti-Semite. First, they mustn't have been listening properly because what Jeremy said was perfectly correct and was neither anti Semite or anti-Islam. As Gita Chakrabarti pointed out he was quoting her report word for word and had taken no part in the writing of it, further, it was not up to Jeremy to comment on the rabid remarks of a 'supporter', it was her responsibility and she did protest. It was her call because it was she who had called the Press Conference, Jeremy was a guest. However, intelligent textual analysis and moderation mustn't be allowed to get in the way of the anti Corbyn project.
My fear is that the longer this gores on, the more likely Corbyn is to crack under the immense pressure, the fact that he hasn't so far is a very strong recommendation for his resolve.
Did you note that in the last week Labour have signed up 60,000 new members? By the way, in case anyone is wondering, my membership is at standard (lower) rate, not some Mickey Mouse £3 ticket.