OneGuyFromBarlick

George Orwell put it rather nicely in The Road to Wigan Pier

"I was born into what you might describe as the lower-upper-middle class"

Nice one, Tripps!

plaques wrote:My own measure of the different 'classes' is how long you could survive without any income.... ie: living off your savings.

I know there are folk who have little income and little or no access to credit...but a lot of people have no savings yet are not poor because they borrow so much and live well on it. Where do they fit in?

They must have some income to pay the interest instalments. If they are borrowing to pay these they are probably heading for a psychiatric ward or the bankruptcy court. Within the working classes we tend to judge peoples class by the amount of money they have together with the ease which they can make more of it. And of course being a totally class ridden society the 'status' we give to certain occupations whether they deserve it or not. We are all first class but most of us can't afford it.

Class depends on the sort of society where you live. It's notable that in any closed institution like a prison, a ghetto or slum the denizens construct their own internal class system. To the super rich everybody except them is a lower class.
Tory leadership turned out to be a putsch. Ignore the reasonable noises May makes at the moment, Cameron did exactly the same. The pressures start to come on her now and my forecast is that she is on a hiding to nothing as we move further into the wastelands of Brexit... She will be in post by tomorrow night and will be revealing Cabinet changes. That will be interesting.....
Notable that our local MP was in the background at Theresa May's news conference. Grinning, nodding and applauding in the right places......

A bit of a long shot but how's this for something to talk about. The Lawyers will say that since the referendum is only advisory it will have to pass through Parliament before it can be acted on. The 'remain' faction will then vote it down and we will back to where we were before, less Cameron!

As we have a representative democracy with a sovereign Parliament then any referendum is only advisory. There is a clear majority in the current Parliament for remaining in the EU. As any representative democracy requires that elected representatives owe us their judgment and not their vote then this would imply they vote down the referendum. That this will not happen (or I would be amazed if it did) shows the ridiculous pickle we have got ourselves into. Referendums blow a gaping hole in the very notion of representative democracy and a sovereign Parliament. That one of the main arguments of the Leavers was for us to take back our sovereignty via a plebiscite that sits square against the very notion shows how stupid the whole thing was.

It once again highlights the rank hypocrisy of this country, which wouldn’t know its own democracy if it hit them in the mouth yet dares to lecture others on democratic deficits. That we have just waffled on and on about unelected these and that’s telling us what to do and in the same breath appoint a PM on the say so of 100-odd folk just rams this home. Nothing new in all these contortions and I think the world must look on and think us hilarious.

Anyway, can we get on and leave now please. The fun hasn’t even started yet……..

Richard Broughton

No, we can't get on and leave just yet, I've got another point.
As well as the referendum being only advisory what annoys me most is that the Government failed in its duty of representative democracy to consult the appropriate experts, do their due diligence and make the decision for us. Surely that ought to invalidate the referendum?

Well the current political maneuverings have pushed the long awaited Chilcot Inquiry Report far from the front pages. A good week to bury bad news - but quite accidental. I doubt anyone has yet read it all - or ever will do.

I suppose this could go into Voting Systems but it's probably better here. The Labour Party NEC have agreed that Jeremy Corbyn as incumbent leader will have an automatic inclusion on the ballot paper. Apparently there are new rules regarding those eligible to vote in the leadership election. No £3 members will get a vote or anyone else with less than 6 months membership of the party. Not sure that they can move the gateposts like that though.

Richard puts my dilemma nicely, Theresa May states that under her leadership there will be no resiling from Brexit. Get used to it. How can this be democratic or even constitutional? Beats me.... There could be a challenge I suppose and her first job might be to attempt to smother it.
I heard the report that Jeremy Corbyn gets an automatic entry into the Labour leadership race. Just imagine the furore if they had decided anything else and as Len McCluskey pointed out, to bar him would have been an affront to natural justice. The vote is triggered by a challenge, not a vacancy. Mutterings about barring certain members from voting sound like an attempt to nullify the latest surge in membership and I have little doubt that there will be a fight over that. One thing is certain, the contest will not be less nasty than the Tory example.....
Richard is right, the world must be laughing at us, at the moment we are a good example for a master class in hypocrisy.
Later.... It strikes me that a common characteristic of all the shenanigans we are seeing at the moment, with the notable and strange exception of the referendum, is the the dismissive way party memberships and the electorate are treated in any matter that bears directly on the career prospects of the MPs...

The vote to alter the eligibility for the ballot for leader was an extra item not on the NEC agenda but added after Jeremy and his supporters on the Committee had left. Commentators have been quick to point out that it clearly states on the Labour Party website that by joining you are eligible to vote in the leadership election as well as throughout the branch and committee structure of the party, it has always been so. They have taken an additional £4 million in extra membership fees on the back of that promise. Various unions are taking them to task. NEC elections are coming up shortly, some will be attempting to cover their own backs.

I presume that as an outgoing PM Cameron collects a pension linked to the PM rate - Is this fair given a resignation.

He also gets to nominate honours for whomever - again is this fair - particulary stuffing the unelected House of Lords with (tory?) sympathisers - what about referendum vote on unelected commissionars in charge of UK affairs ??

Only two comments at this early stage. Bojo as Foreign Secretary? Mrs May mentioned people worrying about the cost of living.... I doubt if that applies to the majority, they simply worry about the fact their wage isn't enough to afford them a decent living which is slightly different.
One thing that strikes me is that her underlying problem is to try to heal the rift in the Tory Party. Remember this when you look at her appointments. The rock of dissent over the EU has been the biggest danger to Tory PMs for the last 50 years. Nothing has changed.

May as PM, Hammond as Chancellor. We just need Clarkson...

Big Kev wrote:May as PM, Hammond as Chancellor. We just need Clarkson...

They've gone one better than the cast of Top Gear, we're all doomed

Apparently the Labour Party NEC has issued a dictate banning any branch meetings until after the leadership election. Brighton & Hove CLP have ignored the ruling and have now been suspended by the NEC and been told that members of the branch will not be allowed to vote in the election for leader.

The NEC is currently made up of a majority of right wing anti Corbyn members but is due for re-election. They are not endearing themselves to the general membership by their current actions.

Membership ballots for the forthcoming NEC elections were due to be sent out starting on the 11th of July.

NEC bans branch meetings? Could be a big mistake Ian. I am not best pleased....
Theresa has evidently been reading Machiavelli, "On taking power, kill the princes". Pity Jeremy didn't do the same thing. Puzzle is why keep Hunt and Bojo.....
This REPORT issued by the Rowntree Foundation drawing attention to the fact that the Brexit vote was largely driven by people feeling that the government was ignoring them is worth reading. I'd trust the Rowntree report more than any politician......

Apparently so Stanley, they pushed through this non agenda item regarding eligibility to vote in the leadership as well the other night. I may not get a vote if this is upheld. Sally rejoined last year shortly after Jeremy was elected as leader, so we are waiting with anticipation to see if she gets her NEC voting papers. There is a suggested list of supportive candidates for the NEC ballot.

Just found this:

Brighton and Hove Independent

Have a look at the comments.

The NEC seems to have ditched the constitution and are running roughshod over basic democracy. They seem to be doing as much damage as possible before the NEC election. All the doing of the PLP and NEC but of course it's Jeremy Corbyn's fault.

" Puzzle is why keep Hunt and Bojo....."

Hunt -you broke it - you fix it, and Bojo - to prove that contrary to popular opinion - she does have a sense of humour.

Ian, that clip from Hove is very revealing, if that feeling is widespread the Blairites are in for a rough ride including, as one commentator pointed out, deselection. I have said all along that the real argument is between the right wing elements of the Party and the membership. In the end the membership will win.
At the moment Theresa May is riding high and getting even. Remember the structure of the classic Greek tragedy, Hubris and Nemesis. Cameron was a perfect example. May should bear this in mind. Politicians talk about gaining and holding 'power'. They are deluded. In a democracy they are granted transitory authority by the electorate and are reminded of this at elections. That is why the biggest mistake they can make in the long run is to ignore the electors. Fine words and spin don't cut it. That is the error that has crept into politics and can only be rectified by ethics and principles, two elements that are sadly lacking today.
The clear example is the rise of the SNP. They got their majority by having clear simple aims and principles. As long as they stick to these they will keep control in Scotland.

Tripps wrote:" Puzzle is why keep Hunt and Bojo....."
Hunt -you broke it - you fix it, and Bojo - to prove that contrary to popular opinion - she does have a sense of humour.

That was my response too, Tripps. Also, I could imagine her talking to Bojo like a teacher to a naughty child: " Boris, it's time you grew up so I'm giving you this one opportunity. Fluff it and your out." On the other hand, one observer said that the role of Foreign Secretary is so downgraded now that it's safer to put him there than having him roam free!

I like the last theory.... but pity his permanent staff who will have the job of managing him.
I'm in watch and wait mode now and will have no access to news next week.... Could be interesting!

Stanley wrote:I like the last theory.... but pity his permanent staff who will have the job of managing him.

I wonder if Bruff could give us the inside line on that? How will the civil service react to having Boris let loose among them?

I'm beginning to wonder about the `attempted Turkey coup'. It all sounds a bit...odd. Is it just coincidence that Erdogan had been staying in the hotel that was bombed, but disappeared beforehand, perhaps on holiday, perhaps not, then reappears just in time to `nip the coup in the bud'? Or did he know what was coming and turned it to his own benefit? He could have found out what the soldiers planned and arranged it so they could go ahead but then find themselves out on a limb and easily subdued. The attempt seemed to fizzle out fast. Or maybe I'm just falling into the usual trap of seeking out a conspiracy when really truth is stranger than fiction?

Tizer wrote:attempted Turkey coup'. It all sounds a bit...odd.

This sort of thing is not exactly new. Remember Guy Fawkes (5 Nov 1605). The government knew what was going on but left it until it was to their best advantage. I must admit I dropped into the conspiracy mode when I read about 'the brick through the window' with Angela Eagle. Funny world we live in now.