OneGuyFromBarlick

Talking of paper records, One day I entered a bank in Manchester on the day a senior security person was visiting, she noted that I required access to the basement and queried the reception staff as to why I was to not escorted. The receptionist explained that I visited on a monthly basis and had done for several years.The security lady said there was to be no exceptions, and because paper documents were stored there escorting was the rule. The deputy manager escorted me to the basement and the security lady came to. On entering the basement the dep manager showed the lady where the sensitve documents were stored her face was a picture when she witnessed the broken cardboard boxes there contents scattered on the floor and the whole pile saturated with water. This was not a solitary case, the fabric of some banks has been allowed to fall into a state which could be considered unfit for human habitation. It was only when RBS looked to being sold to santander that gangs of agency staff went into the banks and attempted to make some sense of the paper records,that may be the only good that came out of it.

PE didn't get a mention on Panorama last night. The bloke who grabbed me was the professor of banking who said that the investment arms gave every indication that they were run in order to produce the biggest bonuses. He said the investment bankers had taken them over and quoted annual figures where the shareholders got £1.4billion and the Lords of the universe £6Billion in bonuses.

Stanley wrote:PE didn't get a mention on Panorama last night. The bloke who grabbed me was the professor of banking who said that the investment arms gave every indication that they were run in order to produce the biggest bonuses. He said the investment bankers had taken them over and quoted annual figures where the shareholders got £1.4billion and the Lords of the universe £6Billion in bonuses.

The fat cats must have been rubbing their hands when Tony Blair came to power, all their Christmasses had come at once , now they were being led from the front.
And dip their bread they did.

It's dangerous to pin the blame on one political persuasion. The gravy train started in the late 1960s with the elimination of the constraints on banks in the Glass-Steagall Act in the States and spread rapidly. The first thing Thatcher did when elected was follow the advice of her backers and repeal all the Acts prohibiting transfer of capital abroad. (I wonder why they supported her?) This allowed what were to become the casino activities to start. In case you're wondering, the 1933 Acts in the US generally referred to as Glass-Steagall were enacted during the depression to control the banking system during a time when the banks and stock markets had got the world into exactly the same position we were in in 2008, collapse of credit due to speculation.

Tardis wrote:

Tizer wrote:Unfortunately the Law demands paper records, as electronic ones can be altered or just wiped

The Law may demand paper records but it doesn't demand that banks keep *only* paper records. As long as they observe the Data Protection Act they can keep records on electronic databases too. The Data Protection Act is too often misinterpreted and used as an excuse for lax business practice or a lack of understanding of how to store data properly in electronic form.

Tizer wrote:

Tardis wrote:

Tizer wrote:Unfortunately the Law demands paper records, as electronic ones can be altered or just wiped

The Law may demand paper records but it doesn't demand that banks keep *only* paper records. As long as they observe the Data Protection Act they can keep records on electronic databases too. The Data Protection Act is too often misinterpreted and used as an excuse for lax business practice or a lack of understanding of how to store data properly in electronic form.

Maybe, but it can also be seen as costly and unnecessary duplication. Why do something else when the minimum is enough?

Good to hear the bankers lambasting Vince the Cable about the Casino Banking on Radio 4. Not a squeak was heard in reply

Very strong evidence now that it wasn't the merchant bankers that caused the problems, but the profligate lending for property

Wonder how the new regulations will alter that view?

Is it really that black and white? I would have thought we witnessed a system failure, with many actors in many arenas of the financial and political and regulatory and public/personal spheres, who in large measure never really understood the consequences of their actions; the products they developed; the policies they espoused; and the choices they made. Until it is recognised as a system failure we are doomed to see it repeated. I don't think it serves much purpose to apportion blame in one arena above all others when there is such interconnectedness.

Richard Broughton

Stanley wrote:It's dangerous to pin the blame on one political persuasion. The gravy train started in the late 1960s with the elimination of the constraints on banks in the Glass-Steagall Act in the States and spread rapidly. The first thing Thatcher did when elected was follow the advice of her backers and repeal all the Acts prohibiting transfer of capital abroad. (I wonder why they supported her?) This allowed what were to become the casino activities to start. In case you're wondering, the 1933 Acts in the US generally referred to as Glass-Steagall were enacted during the depression to control the banking system during a time when the banks and stock markets had got the world into exactly the same position we were in in 2008, collapse of credit due to speculation.

Sorry Stanley if my comment sounded political. I had meant to just mean Tony Blair a man who epitomises all that is wrong with our society, A person who has never done a hard days work,but has amassed great personal wealth whilst in the service of his country.

Mike, nowt wrong with being political but I agree totally with your description of the modern breed of politician. They are totally divorced from reality at the grass roots.
Richard, you are right of course. It isn't black and white. My daughter worked on risk management for a big merchant bank in the years before to crash and her job was to analyse the algorithms the whizz-kids came up with to automatically manufacture cunning wheezes like derivatives. She tells me that repeatedly, when she and her team flagged up the fact that the ultimate effects of the new programmes couldn't be forecast and could be dire, the only question senior management asked was how much profit they could be expected to generate. Possible profit trumped danger every time and massaged bonuses. These were the mechanisms by which bad loans of all descriptions were bundled up with good securities and used as vehicles to spread the bad debt. Sub-prime mortgages were only one component. The end result was that if a rough comparison of the 'value' of the money circulating in the system in dodgy vehicles was compared with the good assets much of the 'value' was what Marx forecast in the 19th century, phantom money. He also forecast the de-skilling of the labour force under mass production and the growing gap between the rich and the poor as a consequence. Bad news for the knee jerk traditionalists who hate Marx but they should read him and realise that they may be throwing the baby out with the bath water! In the end the message might be that pursuit of profit at the expense of social cohesion is not the best way to run an economic model.

Of course, bankers need to make a profit because otherwise their businesses go under

& I don't care what the political rhetoric, the banking crisis had absolutely nothing to do with 'casino banking'

It simply does not tally with the facts, no matter how convenient they are

Plus the Eurozone 'Tobin Tax' is a tax on every private investment, share option or pension. The banks do not pay it. They simply pass the cost on in higher fees

Banks have always made profit, they have ever been the first choice of share investors, but they should have kept to what they did best. Speculation on the scale that we have seen there involvement in was totally crass,and the speed that they shrugged off responsibility was awesome. I have only to go back to the early 70,s when on many occassions i would wait outside Williams and glyn for my girlfriend whilst they balanced their book because a few pence was awry. Now if hundreds are missing they have systems to lose it. There have been a large number of internal thefts by staff in the recent years,yet we never read of prosecutions, i can understand that they
wish to keep the confidence of customers,but i can't condone it. During my career i installed one of the first ATM'S in Leeds the Knowledge I gained from this kept me from using one for years and i advised others to do so. Three months ago i signed up for internet banking, but will only use it to keep an eye on my balance, the only reason I took this step is because they were going to stop my monthly statement. The letter from the bank said they were stopping monthly statements,after speaking to the lady who set up my internet account she said I could have kept my monthly statement i only had to ask. The letter never offered this option to me thats deceit.

Well there you are. My daughter who was working in the industry doesn't know what she is talking about. I'd better let her know that misuse of complicated financial instruments to unload bad debts on the global market had nothing to do with the 2008 crash.....
"I don't care what the political rhetoric," You are confused. Quoting Marx is no different than quoting any of the other great 19th century philosophers. He is very widely regarded as one of the greatest thinkers of the century. Have you read and understood 'Das Kapital'?
I think Comrade Nolic has a good point in another topic, all this froth and splutter and immediate action on a subject that is peripheral to what should really be the focus and begins to look like a smoke-screen. Two things caught my attention; EU GDP has fallen by 0.6% and Osborne commented that Ed Milliband's apology for the change in minimum income tax rate under New Labour was an admission of gross economic ignorance (or words to that effect), how about the current 'evidence' on his policies? Less dog chipping and horsemeat, more concentration on what really matters.

The changes to housing benefit are going to be devastating. I dread to think.

Just a thought regarding politicians. John Major was the only prime minister to have experienced poverty & privation. He has his faults..well...h'es a tory for starters , but I think he sounds a humane sort of guy. I can't reconcile his past as chancellor in Thatcher's government though.

rossylass wrote:The changes to housing benefit are going to be devastating. I dread to think.

Just a thought regarding politicians. John Major was the only prime minister to have experienced poverty & privation. He has his faults..well...h'es a tory for starters , but I think he sounds a humane sort of guy. I can't reconcile his past as chancellor in Thatcher's government though.

Did John Major keep his hand on the helm whilst cavorting with Edwina Curry, or was she just egging him on.

Rossy, humane but misguided. You are right about the benefit cuts still to come. We haven't seen the worst yet and the results are going to be with us for at least two generations. Not good!

Stanley wrote:Well there you are. My daughter who was working in the industry doesn't know what she is talking about. I'd better let her know that misuse of complicated financial instruments to unload bad debts on the global market had nothing to do with the 2008 crash.....

The world crash, is all about confidence. Resulting in a lack of liquidity

The problems within the UK economy are about massive asset inflation and rolling over that debt within the money markets.

There are two separate items, and like all good politicians you cloud the issue when you mention one without giving a full picture

People scratching their heads as to why the stock market is so buoyant,This is I believe is what the guys in red braces call a dead cat bounce,or as some of us say a calm before the storm. Financial analysts think this is caused by Quantative easing the bank of England throws out more pound notes and the Squirrels rush to stash it. When I was a small boy at Gisburn road school we had cardboard trays with card board coins so we could learn about money,and i think I got a fair grasp of it,even in L.s.d.
I'm dashed if I can understand what is going on now,in my possession are a few shares in companies bought at the time of privatation, and some bank shares I bought when they were 10p each. Recently 10 of my bank shares were taken off me and one share returned for each ten my accountant brother in law explained to me why this was done. Just another con no financial benefit. Now I have an ear worm,this I am told is the modern idioism for a song in your head. The one in my head has the refrain When will they ever learn.

[quote="hartley353"When I was a small boy at Gisburn road school we had cardboard trays with card board coins so we could learn about money,and i think I got a fair grasp of it,even in L.s.d.
[/quote]

I bet you also had your small bank book for the "Yorkshire Penny Bank" where you could deposit at school. If I remember rightly, when you had saved a Pound (240d) then, it was transferred to your "big" hard backed bankbook. Teaching thrift and saving with the bank at the same time. I used to get 6d a week or a bob from time to time to take to save for my holiday spending money. I also remember the cardboard coins, and the adding, subtracting ,multiplication and long division of £.s.d. I stared at Gisburn Road in 1957 so all my monetary training was done pre-decimal. A lot of kids can't even add up in decimal now without a calculator they would go into meltdown with the Guinea!

Yes Ian my attendance at Gisburn rd infants and juniors was in the fifties and I remember the savings schemes, I think I may still have a bank money box from that era.
What I can also remember is the black sambo money box my memory fades as for whom we were collecting but every friday we each put a penny in. This was only in the infants. When we got to the juniors the only financial dealings were collecting Rose Hips for school funds, and going to the post office for Mr Nutters post cards and stamps, something to do with his football team. We used to help the caretaker shovel coke, but he never paid us.

Regards Mike.

I still have my savings bank from the Yorkshire. It's a round one made by the Ohio Safe Company in the mid 1930's it's a collectors item now and I think mine still has about 1/9d in it. The Aussies are not having it back!

My wage when I started work was 10/- in my hand and 10/- in the Post Office Saving Bank. Those were the days!

Mine was £7.00 when I started my apprenticeship, £21.00 when I was 21 and just out of my time. Sally and I were engaged and she was earning £50.00 - £60.00 a week on piecework (1000+ slippers a day at Peter Blacks). I enjoyed my job though, stopped doing it when there was no more challenge.

PanBiker wrote:I still have my savings bank from the Yorkshire. It's a round one made by the Ohio Safe Company in the mid 1930's it's a collectors item now and I think mine still has about 1/9d in it. The Aussies are not having it back!

The one I have was oblong with rounded ends, and has sprung brass bars across the coin slots, I was still young when i discovered how to hold the brass bar back with a table knife and by inverting and righting you could persuade a coin to settle on the Knife blade and then slide out the hole.

I remember that my Dad's bank statements were printed in black for credit and red for overdrawn, still like that in 1950s when I was with Lloyds Bank. But my dad also got his cancelled checks back after they'd been paid out. When I was working for Rochdale Welding we did a boiler repair at a storage facility in Cheshire. It was where the banks stored all the old paperwork and cancelled cheques after they had been cleared. I wonder if they still do it?