DIALECT AND WORD MEANINGS

[Stanley]

Eileen, one of the problems which cause people to buy bad meat is that they can't be bothered to find out about the various cuts. You'd be amazed at the amount of cheaper cuts that are thrown away by the cutters 'because there is no call for it'. Even wonderful things like oxtails! Time we educated our kids! The supermarkets can't be bothered to do it, easier for them to sell silverside and brisket and call it 'beef joint'.

[Tripps]

Further to taking the Mick - I found this on a website relating to attendance at an Irish sporting event -

"If you are taking the bus on all 3 days then you must order 3 tickets, order 2 tickets if you are only going 2 days etc.
If for example you and your friend are taking the bus on 2 days then you should order 4 tickets."

I hope that's clear.

[Stanley]

If you want to confuse an Irishman, lean 4 shovels against a wall and tell him to take his pick. Terrible isn't it.... I once asked an Irish bloke who they told jokes about and he said Kerry Men!
'Moggy' for cat. Where does that come from?

[Bruff]

Yes I'd head that about the Irish mocking the Kerry men.

The Canadians mock the folk from Newfoundland, or Newfies. The Swiss the people from Canton Zug.

Richard Broughton

[Cathy]

Moggie / Moggy ??
from moggies.co.uk - In parts of Lancashire, the word moggie means mouse not cat. A cat was known as 'the moggy catcher'. Over time the word catcher was dropped so now moggy means both mouse and cat. There's a few quite interesting facts about cats on the site.

[Stanley]

Thanks for that Cathy. Richard, in the US they tell 'Polak Jokes'..... The Cheshire men told tall stories about the Derbyshire men.

[Stanley]

How widespread is the saying 'a lazy wind. Sooner go through you than round!' It came to mind this morning, a bitter wind and I'm better off indoors!

[Bodger]

Anybody have a dog that is a good "tenter"?

[chinatyke]

Anybody have a dog that is a good "tenter"?

That brings back memories from my childhood when I lived in Colne. But doesn't tenting mean watching or paying heed?
Funnily enough, Bodger, our dog was called Badger!

[Stanley]

Common Bodge, Jack is a good tenter or watchdog. He barks if anyone comes in the backyard. I was an 'engine tenter' when I was running Bancroft engine. I think it comes from 'paying attention' or 'attending', both similar roots.
How about lazy wind, is it common usage?

[Bodger]

How about lazy wind, is it common usage?

It was common around my neck off the woods, Holmfirth area.
Re "short shrift", what was / is a shrift ?,

[Whyperion]

I guessed it was related to Shrove Tuesday , and a quick internet search shows A shrift is a penance (a prescribed penalty) imposed by a priest in a confession in order to provide absolution, often when the confessor was near to death. In the 17th century, criminals were sent to the scaffold immediately after sentencing and only had time for a 'short shrift' before being hanged. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/short-shrift.html goes on to cite Shakespeare Richard III, 1594 , but it seems not to have been in common usage , so its less what it means , but how or why it got popularised.

[Stanley]

I picked up a nice definition from Robin Einhorn's book on taxation and slavery in the US. She says that the expression 'sold down the river' originated around 1800 when the invention of the cotton gin and the textile improvements in Britain made short-staple cotton which could be grown on poorer ground very profitable. This led to a big expansion of cotton-growing and slave ownership in the deep South states and there was a good market for 'second-hand slaves' higher up the Mississippi where slave owning was declining. So the slaves were 'sold down the river'. In the process many families were broken up and hardship caused so the phrase came to mean betrayal.

[Stanley]

Some old words picked up from the historical novels I am reading.
'Ragamuffin' This used to be common in my youth but I haven't heard anyone use it for a long time.
'Funny-ossity', you still hear this usage today.
'Comfits'. I seem to remember this being used for some types opf sweets when I was a lad but again, I haven't heard it lately.

[Stanley]

Here's a word that is new to me. 'Dwale'. " noun, [mass noun] archaic. deadly nightshade or belladonna. a soporific drink formerly made from deadly nightshade or belladonna. Origin: Middle English: probably of Scandinavian origin and related to Danish dvale 'deep sleep, stupor', dvaledrik 'sleeping draught'
Came across this in Shardlake. Used as a form of anaesthetic by medieval apothecaries but very dangerous.

[Stanley]

Archaic words corner. 'Coal hod' Where did that one come from?
'Rascal'. I thought I knew exactly what the meaning of this was but found out yesterday from the Shardlake novels that a 16th C meaning was the remainder of a herd of deer when separated from the stag when he was hunted. There's an Old French word 'rascaille' meaning 'rabble'.
I respect Sansom but went hunting.... I found this: Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia

n. The commonalty of people; the vulgar herd; the general mass.
n. In hunting, a refuse or despicable beast or class of beasts; an animal, or animals collectively, unfit to chase or to kill, on account of ignoble quality or lean condition; especially, a lean deer.
n. A low or vulgar person; one of the rabble; a boor or churl.
n. A low or mean fellow; a tricky, dishonest person; a rogue; a knave; a scamp: used in objurgation with much latitude, and often, like rogue, with slight meaning. Compare rascally.
Paltry; worthless; unworthy of consideration; in a special use, unfit for the chase, as a lean deer: used of things or animals.
Low; mean; base; common; ignoble; vulgar; knavish: used of persons, formerly with reference to class or occupation, but now only with an implication of moral baseness or dishonesty.

[chinatyke]

I always assumed coal hod came from the word 'hold', something to hold coal. Same for a brickie's hod. But I checked and I am wrong. Collins English dictionary suggests it is is from Old French hotte meaning pannier, and probably of Germanic origin.

I remember hearing people say what sounded like hod on meaning hold on or wait.

[Tripps]

My immediate reaction to seeing the word "hod"

Finnegans Wake
Traditional
Tim Finnegan lived in Walkin Street, a gentle Irishman mighty odd
He had a brogue both rich and sweet, an' to rise in the world he carried a hod
You see he'd a sort of a tipplers way but the love for the liquor poor Tim was born
To help him on his way each day, he'd a drop of the craythur every morn

[Stanley]

Some more archaic words and meanings....
The collective noun for a group of swans is a 'game'. The Inn name 'Swan with Two Necks' is a corruption of 'swan with two nicks'. The swans were caught annually and marked by nicking the beaks to denote the owner. One Nick meant they belonged to the Dyer's Guild, Two for the Vintners Guild (hence the pub sign) and five or no nicks meant they were Crown property.
'Cheap' in a name (Cheapside) denoted a market.

[Bruff]

'Woolyback' - You hear this in Liverpool to refer to someone coming from the towns and areas surrounding the city. Supposed to refer to the workers brought into the docks from these towns during dockers' strikes - they had to carry the wool on their backs as they didn't have the correct equipment for off-loading and carrying. Further looking shows that Welsh city dwellers use it to refer to folk from the countryside and perhaps a reference here to sheep.

'Mockbeggar' - the Weatherspoons pub in Moreton up the road is called The Mockbeggar Hall. There are a number of Mockbeggar Halls around. One theory is that these Halls 'mocked' the beggars who turned up as the reality was rather less than the initial grandeur. Thus, Leasowe Castle near Moreton was known locally as Mockbeggar Hall as from the sea it looked a terribly grand place; in reality it had become a wreck. A Mockbeggar Hall in Sussex has a grand drive and impressive edifice, yet is only one room deep.

Richard Broughton

[Stanley]

'Knobsticks' for strike breakers in textile industry. So called because they carried cudgels to defend themselves.

Richard, part of my equipment on the wagon was a 'bale hook'. Useful when you were handling sacks or bales. All the dockers had one and used to carry them hung on the back of their collar. A useful weapon in a brawl..... Ever come across razor blades sewn into the peak of a cloth cap? I must have been mixing with some very dodgy characters!

[rossylass]

Well blow me down! Only on Saturday my partner looked up the origins of Brummagen and came across the Brummagen Boys a Birmingham gang operating in the early 1920's. Along with a gang from Leeds they decided to take on the Sabini gang from London, who ran a protection racket with on course bookies. They came unstuck when a joint plan to ambush the Sabini gang ended in chaos when the daft Brummagen Boys mistakenly attacked their Leeds allies. The favourite weapon among these gangs was razor blades concealed in the peak of their caps. I recollect that at one time there was a gang in Manchester called the Peaky Blinders.

I won't cross you Stanley....you may get your friends on me!

[Bodger]

flat cap blade were used in Sheffield also, so my father told me !
Heres a link from RootsChat.com
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... ;topicseen

referring to" wessel bobs "in Mirfield, i lived in Holmfirth but do not recall them, although we did go Wassaling for money. were the "wesselbobs" part of Barlick at Christmas ?

[Stanley]

Wassail still survives wherever there are carol singers.
Read 'No Mean City' by Macarthur and Kingley-Lowe for authentic accounts of the inter-war gang wars in Glasgow. I knew an old police constable in the city and he pointed me at the book and said it was based on newspaper accounts and police records of the time. He was there and said the book was totally accurate.
Latest cullings from reading Elizabethan readings. Ladslove under the bed promoted love-making......
I had reason to look up the origin of the name Pickles. 'He who lived on pike leys', small grass enclosures. There is a Pikely Fields farm at West Marton.

[rossylass]

I was unsure where to post this, but it sounds like dialect matter!

What are hippins & who was Pickles?