OneGuyFromBarlick

It's not surprising there were fewer visits to the doctor in those days!

I always remember the excruciating description of an early operation to remove 'The Stone'. You'd have to be pretty desperate. Was it in Pepys' diary? I remember it was done with him fully conscious and sitting in a chair.... The stuff of nightmares.
By the way Tiz, had you clocked this? LINK It looks as though there is more than meets they eye in the recent reporting of the World Heath Organisation's warning about the cancer risk of Glyphosate. Could it be an example of one of your pet hates, sloppy reporting on science matters?

Yes, that's another example of a frequent distorting of the message through the lens of the media. Much of our environment would fit into the `probably causes cancer' definition. The more you test the more you find. The world outside our bodies is an alien environment - oxygen is toxic, sunlight burns our skin and causes cancer, pathogenic bugs are all around us and a volcano could wipe us out tomorrow. Those are genuine dangers, not `probably' dangers, yet the news media think we should be frightened by anything that `might' carry a risk, no matter how small. They'll tell you it's their duty `in the public interest'.

Another garbling of a message in the last few days concerns worldwide reporting University of Edinburgh research under headlines such as `DNA can't explain all inherited biological traits, research shows'. Even`Science Daily' used that headline and said: "The finding demonstrates for the first time that DNA is not solely responsible for how characteristics are inherited."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 161751.htm
And yet the fact that `that DNA is not solely responsible for how characteristics are inherited' is not new information. It is known as epigenetics and has been around for years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
What is novel is that the Edinburgh work concerns histone proteins which envelop the DNA.

By coincidence, Bob is pertinent on that subject. Darwin got there first! See today's Bob's Bits.

Stanford University, 6th April 2015
`Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries'
"Stanford University scientists have invented the first high-performance aluminum battery that's fast-charging, long-lasting and inexpensive. Researchers say the new technology offers a safe alternative to many commercial batteries in wide use today. "We have developed a rechargeable aluminum battery that may replace existing storage devices, such as alkaline batteries, which are bad for the environment, and lithium-ion batteries, which occasionally burst into flames," said Hongjie Dai, a professor of chemistry at Stanford. "Our new battery won't catch fire, even if you drill through it." Dai and his colleagues describe their novel aluminum-ion battery in "An ultrafast rechargeable aluminum-ion battery," which will be published in the April 6 advance online edition of the journal Nature."
More here: https://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/mar ... 33115.html

I heard that report as well Tiz. Sounds promising.....

There's more on this BBC web page: http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32204707

An interesting article. I wonder what the possibilities are for scaling up the technology? For instance, in hybrid motor vehicles.....

Look at THIS for some interesting but disturbing results from field trials on nicotinoid pesticides. It appears that bees prefer pollen laced with the poison, a bit like humans getting addicted to nicotine.

BBC Countryfile program have been highlighting the problems with Neo Nics for a number of years now with regard to the possible link with the decline in the bee population. It's a catch 22 situation of course and will remain as long as the consumer insists on "perfect" vegetables and blemish free fruit. Joni Mitchell had it bang on in the words of her song 40 years ago, "give me spots on my apples, but leave me the birds and the bees". DDT was the culprit then but Neo Nics have not solved the problem.

And of course the companies who produce the chemicals use their financial clout to argue against the findings and lobby the EU and other governments. How short-sighted can we be?

Stanley wrote:And of course the companies who produce the chemicals use their financial clout to argue against the findings and lobby the EU and other governments. How short-sighted can we be?

Without herbicides and crop protection chemicals and the work done by the Chemical and Agrochemical Industries you'd be seeing a lot of famine. Do you remember the pictures of Biafran kids starving in the sixties?

What's that got to do with the well documented campaigns to defend dangerous substances?, Think Minnemata and Mercury, Dow,Dioxins and Bophal, Turner's and asbestos, Ribble Cement and Chemfuel nearer home. Like any other great industry, the large companies have been essential to progress but that doesn't excuse their glaring mistakes.

A lot of people don't seem to understand the propagation mechanism of plant species as a whole and how important the bee population is. It's irrelevant how disease or blemish free the crops are if there are no bees left to pollinate the crops. One of the commentators on Countryfile described the decimation of the bee population as the equivalent of the Black Death. As far as I am aware we have not yet developed an automated replacement for their particular job so we lose these particular workers at our peril.

Stanley wrote:What's that got to do with the well documented campaigns to defend dangerous substances?, Think Minnemata and Mercury, Dow,Dioxins and Bophal, Turner's and asbestos, Ribble Cement and Chemfuel nearer home. Like any other great industry, the large companies have been essential to progress but that doesn't excuse their glaring mistakes.

Just defending the chemical industry that is so important to our lives.

Looking closer to home, how was the asbestos cleaned up at Butts?

chinatyke wrote:
Just defending the chemical industry that is so important to our lives.

Just defending the bees which are even more important to our lives.

I agree with Ian, it's a bit like saying there are 'acceptable levels' of certain poisons and pollutants. Acceptable to whom?
Not sure what Butts question means. As far as I an aware asbestos is still used in filters and nowt wrong with that as long as it is done in a safe manner. It's when it is used and manufactured badly that the problems arise.

Stanley wrote: Not sure what Butts question means. As far as I an aware asbestos is still used in filters and nowt wrong with that as long as it is done in a safe manner. It's when it is used and manufactured badly that the problems arise.

In the sixties, Chrysotile asbestos was deemed to be safe and only blue asbestos was considered a problem. It was therefore handled and stored without the strict safety precautions now associated with all types of asbestos. Contamination of the premises and surrounding area did occur. It was delivered and tipped onto the boiler house floor and piled up. I know that from working there. The fact remains that all forms of asbestos are carcinogenic, including chrysotile, and doctors and researchers have said again and again that no level of exposure is safe. My question was how was the area cleaned up and decontaminated?

Read 'Magic Mineral or Killer Dust' for hard evidence that the asbestos manufacturers knew the dangers early in the 20th century. You are quite right about the way it was handled even as late as the 1970s.
As for 'clearing Butts'. I have no knowledge and don't understand the meaning of the question but I have plenty of experience with asbestos clearance and once the danger was realised very strict (and expensive) methods were imposed on the cleaning contractors. These included creating a 'negative pressure gradient' inside the space to be cleared by using plastic screening and powerful exhaust fans, filtration of all air removed from the area, double air locks for access and exit,effective filtration air masks or personal filtration on pumps for positively pressurised helmets, disposable protective clothing and provision of shower facilities with strict quarantine, physical collection of all dust, double bagging of all debris and disposal in approved land fill where the contaminated waste was sealed with soil as it was deposited. Low contamination bulk waste like rubble had to be handled wet to stop air borne pollution. The proof that a space was 'clear' was when high grade filters in units sampling the air were passed as satisfactory after microscopic examination of the filter pads.
Grossly contaminated ground in situations like the site of the TBA works in Rochdale are uneconomical to decontaminate. The treatment for these is sealing by landscaping and the prohibition of any further disturbance.

Chinatyke notes that there are different types of asbestos. There has been a lot of confusion over the word `asbestos' which has led to unfounded scare stories while at the same time putting a smoke screen over the issue to the benefit of the asbestos industry (I'm not criticising Chinatyke here, but simply describing the situation). I've mentioned on OG before how a senator in California started a big campaign to get serpentine dropped from being the `state mineral of California'. She said the state shouldn't be associated with such a dangerous chemical. The truth is that asbestos is related to serpentine but that doesn't make serpentine dangerous. The danger with asbestos is when the mineral occurs in the fine fibrous crystal form. It's more to do with the physical form than the chemical nature.

As for knowing that asbestos can be dangerous, the Romans and ancient Greeks knew it could be harmful to health but the asbestos industry wasn't willing to share that knowledge with us. The Romans and Greeks used asbestos cloth to make cleaning cloths which could be themselves cleaned (regenerated) by simply throwing them on the fire for a while. Just imagine the promotional blurb they might have used: "Magic cleaning cloths, regenerated in minutes on a hot fire! Buy yours now!"

One of the strange things about asbestos is the unpredictability of the consequences of exposure. If you dig into the history of Acre Mill near Hebden Bridge you'll find the sad story of the lady who only worked in the laboratory for a fortnight but died of exposure to raw fibres. I have had massive exposure to dust containing asbestos when cleaning boiler tops but, so far, seem to have escaped. My friend Graham Riley who worked with me at Ellenroad died from exposure while I walked away seemingly unscathed. Very strange... every time I cough I wonder!
I rem,ember a knowledgeable friend in the asbestos removal industry once telling me that if sensitive air sampling filters were installed in all old public buildings we would be in for a big shock. I have little doubt he knew what he was talking about. He also told me that the industry was rife with certificated contractors and laboratories who, for a small fee, would give a favourable report on otherwise dangerous samples....
Then there are the invisible dangers ranging from diesel particulates and tyre dust to oestrogen from the pill that pervade our environment. Many believe that the modern explosion of allergies, glue ear and asthma are in part a consequence of these invisible pollutants.
When the Clean Air Acts came in and coal burning on domestic fires gave way to 'clean' gas I used to point out that the emissions from the boiler flues, though invisible, were just as dangerous.

It's amazing what's going on underground in Cleveland, UK....
`Welcome to the Boulby Underground Laboratory'
"The Boulby Underground Laboratory, the UK's deep underground science facility, located 1100m below ground in Boulby Mine on the North East coast of England. Boulby is one of just a handful of facilities world-wide suitable for hosting ultra-low background and deep underground science projects. Boulby is a special place for science - 'a quiet place in the Universe' - where studies can be carried out almost entirely free of interference from natural background radiation. Studies underway at Boulby range from the search for Dark Matter in the Universe, to studies of cosmic rays and climate, astrobiology and life in extreme environments, development of techniques for deep 3D geological monitoring and studies of radioactivity in the environment."
http://www.stfc.ac.uk/Boulby/default.aspx

Holes in the ground can be very useful. There was a very deep open pit above Bingley that used to be an enormous quarry. In the 1960s it was used as a tip for hazardous waste and I often wonder about the different materials that were tipped in there. We dropped sludge from the sewage plant in there, horrible stuff and sometimes it fizzed up when it met the multi-coloured waste in the bottom.

A new man takes charge of science for the government...
"Jo Johnson studied modern history at Balliol College, Oxford, and was first elected to parliament in 2010. The Orpington MP went into the election as head of the Downing Street Policy Unit. His pre-parliament career was spent as an investment banker and a journalist. He had 13 years on the Financial Times, including stints as a foreign correspondent." LINK

Well, at least he has some experience outside politics but it's a shame he doesn't have any experience of science, technology, engineering or mathematics (that is, apart from the maths of counting money). I wonder how many scientists we now have in Parliament? Cambridge MP Julian Huppert was widely noted as the only research scientist in Parliament but he has just lost his seat. The Association of Lib Dem Engineers and Scientists (Aldes) had six science champions chosen from parliamentary candidates and sitting MPs but I think none of them are now in Parliament. LINK

Add historians as well... Far too many career politicians, PPE degree, intern-ship and a seat as a career path. This is why they are so ignorant of real life at the grass roots and are always surprised and outraged when the safety valve blows with a riot or a strike. Despite legislation against protest it will increase and in the end it is a powerful weapon. Remember the Poll Tax! (Scotland certainly hasn't forgotten ......)