WHAT ATTRACTED YOUR ATTENTION TODAY?

[Stanley]

See THIS for breaking news about the fire in a 27 story block of flats in London. Very few details as yet but it's looking very bad and starting at 01:00 this morning, many people will have been in their beds. Private Eye has been banging on for years about the dangers of these tower blocks that have no sprinkler systems. It makes me wonder whether this had them or not. No casualty figures as yet but I fear the worst.
I was watching a live feed of the fire and the site included streaming internet comments. You wouldn't believe the levels of abuse and speculation masquerading as facts. I know this happens but watching it coming in live is shocking. There are some very warped people out there!

[Cathy]

Yes we have had the footage too. No fire alarms or sprinklers, cladding not fire retardant. Just awful. Heads will roll. Apartments worldwide will have to be checked. Eerie to be able to see right thru the building.

[Stanley]

See THIS. 12 dead confirmed and more expected. A true disaster.
The site is quiet this morning, the usual summer syndrome but also I suspect, from his silence, Tiz and Janet are in the throes of moving. I wish them well!
Late reports are preparing us for a big rise in the death toll in the Grenfell fire. One fire officer has said that he wouldn't be surprised if it reached 100.
Two things grab me. First is the fact that the cladding used to prettify the tower was obviously flammable. There was no sprinkler system because 'it would be too expensive' to install it. This is no excuse. For over 100 years the insurance companies have made certain that it was uneconomical to run industrial premises without adequate active fire prevention systems. Gradually they became mandatory in industrial premises on safety grounds. It is time this was extended to accommodation like Grenfell Tower. Worth remembering that 96% of fires in sprinkler equipped buildings are confined to the original seat of fire. The solution seems obvious......

[Tizer]

Tiz and Janet are in the throes of moving. I wish them well!

Thanks. We haven't exchanged contracts yet but we're in the midst of all the conveyancing forms between solicitors. It's gets more complicated each year, more questions, more things to search out. You're expected to be able to provide certificates and permissions for all sorts of things now. Also clearing out old stuff. I'm emptying the garage of 20 years of clutter and have the help of a man-and-van. He took half of it yesterday and comes back today for the rest. He has good contacts with charities with as much as possible will be used again.

I've been looking at the specs for the tower cladding (Reynobond) because some reports refer to it as insulation and that didn't sound right to me. It turns out to be a decorative cladding consisting of 3mm of solid extruded polythene sandwiched between two sheets of aluminium each about 0.5mm thick. So, a total of 4mm thickness. That's not going to offer any significant thermal insulation and it's essentially a decorative cladding. It's made by Alcoa in the US and passed Canadian fire safety tests.

[Big Kev]

It sounds like the same stuff used for shop sign facias.

[Tripps]

and permissions for all sorts of things now.

Have they hit you for 'Chancel Repair' insurance yet? There was one egregious case, and they try to frighten you with it. Worked for me - didn't cost too much though - negligible in the overall cost. Peace of mind.

[Tripps]

The media is in a frenzy at the moment. The story of the baby thrown from the 9th floor interests me. I saw the original live interview when it was first told, by a teenage girl. From memory- she said a mum had wrapped her child in a blanket and thrown her from the 9th floor. She said the child was caught by a man on the ground, and suffered no harm.

This seems to now be accepted by much of the media. Even Jon Snow on Channel 4 news last night referred to the incident, without caveat.

The story seems as yet to be uncorroborated. What happened to this child? What did the man that caught it, do with it? Why has there been no follow up to the story? Surely the man would have been all over the media. I hope I am wrong, but I am very sceptical about this whole matter.

PS. 1.00 pm. Maajid Nawaz of LBC, has just repeated this story, giving the same girl's name as the source. He said the child was thrown from the tenth floor, and caught in a blanket by a man on the ground.

[Stanley]

Similar to 'the fog of war' David.
Tiz, I saw yesterday that the same firm do a similar product but using slag wool instead of the foam . This of course totally non-flammable but costs more.... Could the bottom line turn out to be underfunding of social housing?
One thing I have detected about the present situation at Grenfell is that the relief operation and information services are short of coordination.

[Tizer]

and permissions for all sorts of things now.

Have they hit you for 'Chancel Repair' insurance yet? There was one egregious case, and they try to frighten you with it. Worked for me - didn't cost too much though - negligible in the overall cost. Peace of mind.

That seems to be normal now, Tripps. There have been other cases of people caught out by it, I believe. There are little policies to cover all sorts of possibilities now. The solicitors use companies who provide `packages' of information on e.g. environmental issues. They are many pages long but contain very little useful information. The one for the house we are trying to buy listed `No' to everything except a `hazard' located about half a mile away on the main road - a dry cleaner's shop.

[Stanley]

I wonder if any of the properties in Barlick hit by the flood of 1932 mention it in the search?
I remember a bloke in the US who was a red neck and survivalist telling me that his first question about a new house was whether it had a good field of fire and a cellar.... When I chose this house it was because there was room for the shed and George, the bloke next door, could get to anywhere he wanted in Barlick on his motorised wheelchair.

[Tizer]

Our choice for the next house was first to be near my relatives who have PoA for both of us; then to be near shops (there's a Tesco Metro, a butcher and a baker, all a short, level walk away); easy access to a doctors' surgery (it's opposite the shops); not too far out of town (we'll be able to walk into the town centre); not squashed up against other houses (it's on a corner plot, separate from others); open aspects (it's elevated and has distant front views over the opposite buildings - I as brought up in a house on a high hill); a garden that's spacious but not to big to maintain, and is private, not overlooked. You can tell from that how fussy we are and that it's not easy for us to find a house! (But you always have to compromise somewhere.)

Tiz, I saw yesterday that the same firm do a similar product but using slag wool instead of the foam . This of course totally non-flammable but costs more.... Could the bottom line turn out to be underfunding of social housing?

The news media are still confusing the public over the `insulated cladding' and I feel sorry for the companies that are being vilified in the press. Even if it proves to be involved in the extent and speed of the fire I expect it would be because it was used wrongly rather than what it's made of. The BBC is still saying: "The cladding had a metal outer coating and an expanded foam interior. This polyethylene - or plastic - core is less fireproof than other alternatives." They are treating it as one material, which is wrong. Panels of thick foam insulation were fixed to the outer faces of the external walls of the building. These were then clad in the Reynobond decorative sheets which are aluminium-polythene-aluminium laminate (3-4mm thick). It's not yet clear whether the Reynobond was fastened directly onto the insulation panels or a cavity was left. The BBC does say: "Some exterior cladding can create cavities which, in some cases, can cause what's known as "a chimney effect", drawing flames up the cavity if there are no fire barriers."

The press keep calling the insulation polythene (brand name) or polyethylene (chemical name) which are two names for the same material. I think the foam panels are probably polyisocyanurate (known in the trade as PIR) which is used to insulate almost all new houses in the UK and in most countries with cold climates. It's what we used in our house to insulate our old external walls. It doesn't burn and it's passed all the regulatory fire tests. It's normally used in cavity walls or as a laminate behind gypsum plasterboard. If it had any role in the tower fire I expect it will be because such fires get much hotter and fierce than a house fire.

[Whyperion]

I understand Reynobond PE is not a PIR sandwich, Reynobond FR I understand is. https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_ameri ... od_id=1534 The original over-cladding specified a Zinc finish with no specification in the PLANNING document for what the sandwich content should be. The planning appn was then revised, but no -re-clad material seems to have been specified in those documents. The planning detail drawing of the walls - which are cast in situ concrete floors with part-hight window rebate upstands - indicated a Celotex insulation block , 50mm cavity with fixing battens then the over-cladding decorative panels. Celotex FR5000 itself is expanded polystrene ? with a fire resistant treatment, one architect practice has blogged that it looked like OSB panels had been affixed , but that may just be uncertainty from photographs to date. Other blogs seem to indicate that the over-clad material supplier was asked to price for Reynobond PE to be supplied to the contractors bidding for the over-cladding element of the work programme. Howver the RBKC planning website does not appear to have a full rationale for granting planning permission , the summary decision refers back to the planning reference number but the documents do not stack up on reading from what I would consider to be a reasonable PLANNING reasons. The websites (and I belive this is for all England Planning Websites) Do not have documents for AMENDMENTS (of a non-material nature) to granted planning permissions, nor do they have avalible the building regulation drawings , so the public cannot see what materials were actually approved for use. The BREEAM documentation on the planning permission does not clearly deal with fire resistance or fire abatement or fire escape detail as such, although I understand Fire Alarms were fitted to common landings FOR THAT LANDING ONLY and smoke detectors to landlord's flats but these would not require planning permission to fit.

The panels were warrented to a USA flame standard A rating , which a similar company describes for its product
http://www.tfpglobal.com/news-events/ne ... e-testing/

One cannot think really why one would choose the PE product in any circumstances, I suspect that say the likes of Home Bargains at Duke Bar and other retail shops possibly use this or similar from other manufactures for the external cladding. Fire risk to the lives of others is generally low (although if used as a ceiling board it has been implicated in the death of two uk firefighters in a Suffolk chicken processing works), and if new build residential is subsequently added at heights above I would imagine that smoke inhalation could be a potential problem in the event of a combustable event.

I think you may find that PIR will burn too after time and wind conditions

However I would have expected to be able to find BBA specification sheets which I have not seen on the internet - I used to have a substantial filing cabinet of such for building products that I could refer to. And additionally I understand that for the sandwich panels the fire test is not a 'real-world' test (what wind conditions specifically ?)


The newly elected Labour member for Kensington and Chelsea was a board member of the TMO and as such would as director have joint responsibilty with other directors for the specifications on major projects and as director to have availed herself of all neccessary training and knowledge to perform her duties as a director competantly.

[Stanley]

The fact that with a clear sky it's almost daylight at 03:30. Lovely!
Later I hear a report that a government spokesman has said that the reduction in regulation and the 25% cut in fire inspections since 2010 has had no affect on fire safety as the number of reported fires has fallen by 25% in the same period. So that's all right then..... How out of touch and specious can these people get? Is it any wonder that in the face of attitudes like this tempers are rising?

[Whyperion]

Reviewing the Cladding Panel manufacturer's spec sheets, make interesting attempt to interpret. The cladding is are now marketed as two styles , 'Architectural' which is the two sandwhich types, essentially to make things look nice, and 'Building' of a non-structural nature it seems which is a profilable paint coated panel.

But the broucher is ambigious in its wording and layout and most people would have difficulty in assessing what to use give the French test result of 'France NF P 92-501 PE & FR: M1 combustible; non-inflammable'
Europe EN 13501 FR: B-s1-d0 (so no apparent EN 13501 certification for PE product)
Germany DIN 4102 [PE: B2 ]– [FR: B1]

source

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... m2NXFfY_JA

Phillip Hammond Struggling on Andrew Marr

[Tizer]

Whippy, neither Reynobond PE nor Reynobond FR contain PIR. The PE is, as its name suggests an Al-polyethylene-Al sandwich while the FR is an Al-mineral-Al fire-resistant sandwich. The PIR panels would be affixed to the concrete and then the Reynobond fixed over the PIR, with or without a cavity. As I understand it, the PE product was used at Grenfell and the boss of the installer company says the council specified it.

From the Aloa web site:LINK
Reynobond PE is flexible to the core.
Reynobond PE features a polyethylene core that adds strength and rigidity to the coil-coated aluminum panels. This maximizes its flexibility and formability, while maintaining a light weight for easy installation.

Reynobond FR adds an extra layer of protection.
Reynobond FR is manufactured just like Reynobond PE, but with a fire-retardant mineral core that guarantees higher resistance to fire. These panels meet or exceed national model building code requirements without exception.

[Whyperion]

I dont think I said either contained PIR. That material was the Celotex RS5000 150mm Which it appears the official fire tests have been when mounted on a plasterboard or calcium silicate board substrate, there was no known substrate here, mounting appears to be direct to the concrete upstand.

The improvements to 'visual amenity' I have taken to read (a) neccessary as planning permission requires the impact of a development to take due note and consideration of impact on a conservation area (and two adjoined the area the tower was in). (b) when bidding for funding any additional selling points to ensure money (for better insulation) are thrown into the mix, and it is unfair on the Local Authority Scheme Promotor in this instance to have thought of cladding the building just to 'beautify' the area, that the wrong stuff was used I maintain is a total fog in the supply chain where other manufactures have not made it clear of the total fire risk in their docucmentation. That the Local Authority as a purchasor should have been put on enquiry as to why an alternative was cheaper and made better investigation has to come from a judiciary better informed than I.

[Stanley]

Regardless of the specification, it burned.........
The concrete may have looked ugly but you'd have a job to set it on fire. As I understand it the intention was to make the building look less brutal.
The weather, Barlick summer.....
See THIS for a BBC report of a van being driven into a crowd outside Finsbury Park mosque around midnight.

[Wendyf]

Looked out of the window at 5am when I got up for a pee and saw a pony where it shouldn't have been. Sheep had broken the electric fence. Luckily they were easy to get hold of (with the aid of food) when we caught up with them outside my neighbours house. Colin didnt appreciate having to get up at that time though! I'm hoping they hadn't been out long, there is a lot of rich grass out there!

[Stanley]

Always a danger at this time of the year isn't it Wendy. I remember a lovely pony which had grass sickness and we tried everything but in the end had to put it out of its misery..... It belonged to one of Richard Drinkall's daughters and she was distraught.

[Tizer]

Does the grass ferment and cause bloating?

[Wendyf]

No one really knows what causes grass sickness Tiz, it attacks the nerves causing gut paralysis and though it is associated with grazing horses it can happen anytime, anywhere and could possibly be associated with stress. Not to do with spring grass.
My fear is laminitis which is caused by high blood sugar levels from eating spring grass causing a restriction in blood supply to the structure of the hoof. At its worst the bone loses its support inside the hoof and thats curtains for the horse. It used to be known as founder or sinkers.

[Marilyn]

Lovely to see Her Majesty riding a horse...
( You go girl...with legs that are the thickness of knitting needles!)

[Stanley]

It's a horrible disease Tiz. One early sign of grass sickness is that a horse will go to drink but plunge its head into the water. I've heard of founders but never knew what it was Wendy, I know about Laminitis. If you fed young beef stirks too hard you could get it. Some call it 'Barley Sickness'.

[Tizer]

It all makes me glad I don't keep horses for a hobby - I'd be a nervous wreck worrying about them!

[Wendyf]

Too right Tiz!! Life is very stressful especially at this time of year. Grass, flies, fences.....trouble is that once you have started keeping them it's very hard to stop.