POLITICS CORNER

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by chinatyke » 11 Jun 2019, 13:27

Stanley wrote:
11 Jun 2019, 12:55
You're right of course, Brexit is an existential risk but I think my point might be that the reason we haven't managed this already is the fact our political system is set up for confrontation and not cooperation. It has been tested to breaking point and proved wanting.
Exactly! A round table with no reserved seating places would be a nice starting point.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 11 Jun 2019, 15:58

plaques wrote:
11 Jun 2019, 12:10
chinatyke wrote:
11 Jun 2019, 11:59
Tizer wrote: ↑11 Jun 2019, 12:02
I would give priority to preventing Brexit. Once out, we can't go back in.
Is that true?
No. We could join again but not on the same terms that we enjoy at the moment. Also it would appear that unless we chose an off the shelf membership then a bespoke deal could take quite a long time.
Thanks for clarifying my comment, Plaques. I should have been more specific - essentially I meant we couldn't have what we have now.

Stanley uses the phrase `existential risk' above. I keep hearing also the phrase `existential threat'. What does existential mean in these uses?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 12 Jun 2019, 02:19

I use it in the modern sense which seems to have replaced immediate or clear and present. I apologise for such sloppy use of language....
Don't you long to hear a politician start his hustings speech by saying "we should not even be in this position...." or something similar? They all seem to be stage managed like the start of a boxing match or snooker tournament with a compère or even a supporting act to 'enthuse' the audience. I noted Angela Leadsom's use of an uplift in lighting levels as she entered the room..... The sooner this pantomime is over and we get back to politics the better but then of course there will be the holiday and the Party Conferences....
I am forced into conjecture that this is all part of a Cunning Wheeze to ensure that the final decision has to be rushed and No Deal will be slipped through under our noses. It looks as though Labour's call for cross party efforts to ensure rejection of No Deal could mean they suspect the same thing.
If No Deal does slip through May will have the small satisfaction of knowing that her ploy of running the clock down was eventually successful. (She appears to be sat in her kitchen thinking of ways to polish her legacy.....)
According to the right wing media B Johnson is still favourite for PM but there are some interesting cracks opening in his policy of keeping stum on the grounds that he is his own biggest danger. His main plank is leaving in October but today there is a serious move in Parliament to stop any precipitate exit. Then there is the matter of the growing concern about the fact he is avoiding all hard interviews. This is because he is an easy target. Think Garden Bridge and water cannons when he was mayor and the horrible mess he made in Iran on the lady in gaol there. There is plenty of other ammunition and nothing is certain. After all, the front runner has never won this race.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 12 Jun 2019, 07:40

Stanley wrote:
12 Jun 2019, 02:19
According to the right wing media B Johnson is still favourite for PM
This surge in euphoria comes from a pol by the Telegraph, who would have thought that! see Sky news. Not only will he become the next Prime Minister but will produce a 140 seat majority in the next general election. He may get away with closing parliament down until the Bexit dead line passes but closing it until the next election would be pushing it too far.
Here is some of the rhetoric we may be hearing.. "We cannot let them [Corbyn's Labour] anywhere near Downing Street and I would remind you that the last time I faced an emanation of that Marxist cabal I defeated him when the Conservatives were 17 points behind in London. And we can do it again."

Strange use of the word emanation. re..(in various mystical traditions) a being or force which is a manifestation of God.
‘they believe that each human soul is an emanation of Godhood’ Note! Marx was actually an atheist.
Then we have 'Marxist cabal'. next it will be the Labour Hydra or some other monster that will come and stop the free TV licence for the over 75s

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 12 Jun 2019, 08:47

Sooner or later he is going to be exposed to questions, hopefully in time to scupper his bid for leadership.
(Please God! Let it be so!)
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 12 Jun 2019, 11:10

What's occurring? It's time for PMQ's. She's still PM, the House is full, yet they are doing questions on 'Women and Equalities' to Penny Mordaunt.

12.10 pm - Ah she's arrived. Better late than never - It's as if she never left.

I can't decide to be pleased or irritated. :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 13 Jun 2019, 02:08

I see Labour lost the motion to have a say about No Deal Brexit. The Tories have only one thing on their minds, 'which candidate is most likely to prolong my time in office'.
This may be exciting Westminster Village politics but it ain't democracy. I have a feeling of sinking slowly into a morass. I can see no reason to be optimistic about anything.This is the fabled 'cliff edge'.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 13 Jun 2019, 08:51

Stanley wrote:
13 Jun 2019, 02:08
I have a feeling of sinking slowly into a morass. I can see no reason to be optimistic about anything.This is the fabled 'cliff edge'.
I agree 100%. The failure of the Labour motion is depressing. What little faith I had in our Parliament has gone. It's going to need a complete overhaul and it might have to be the distress and trauma of falling into the Brexit pit that does it. Sorry to be pessimistic but that's how I feel at the moment.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 13 Jun 2019, 09:12

It's a true representation of "the Westminster bubble", I would call it "cloud cuckoo land". As outsiders and perfectly rational individuals we can plainly see a number of ways forward. The simplest being to cancel article 50, no one has the balls to do it or even suggest it. This was a no win situation from the get go with an almost 50/50 split. Whatever the outcome you are still going to end up with 50% of the population aggrieved, this split will take a generation at least to fix, probably longer. Those that have to live longest with the backlash are the young who have not had a say in any of it. I can see that after the event civil unrest would not be off the cards, power vacuum territory. :sad:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 13 Jun 2019, 11:51

The mechanics of the various options are shown here.
.
Image
.
The extreme left leg is probably what will happen. Come what may and however badly it damages the country's economy it will leave the Tory's in power. The mantra is 'keep Corbyn out' Those at the bottom of the heap, probably Labour supporters, don't matter. Those at the top like ie: real Tory's, will weather the storm quite nicely. That's what real democracy is about??.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 13 Jun 2019, 12:35

Looks like Boris is home and dry, following the first members' vote. If he gets to the final two, the membership will vote for him. The hurdle was getting there. Looks like self preservation at the forthcoming election, has trumped all other concerns for the MP's.

Rod Stewart has just been interviewed - he says he will enable Brexit, by 'driving through' Mrs May's 'Withdrawal Agreement'. That's the 'agreement' remember, that has been rejected three times by the Commons. To be fair - he was often the only politician who continued to support it throughout.

Strange he didn't mention at all, his idea of a 'peoples' assembly' - picked statistically at random, and chaired by the Archbishop of Canterbury which will produce a fresh new 'agreement' which will pass the Commons, and the European Parliament, and be all done and dusted by October 31st.

I can't think why - that's what he said last time I heard him speak. :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 14 Jun 2019, 03:46

Tiz, not pessimistic, realistic.
Ian I agree entirely. The damage done already will take 50 years to fix, throw your own guess at post-Boris....
My American visitors asked my views.... They agree completely and say that the US is in just as bad a situation. We agreed not to spend valuable time discussing morons and incompetents.
Tergiversation news, see THISnews of Chuka Umunna's road to Damascus moment. Having previously rubbished the LibDems he has now joined them..... A sliding scale of values is essential in today's politics.
News that Matt Hancock is about to withdraw from 'the race'. Expect much plotting against Boris....
Interesting piece in PE about champion of small business Sajid Javid being the man who when Business Minister closed down the departments set up to help small businesses to survive. More flexible standards.....
I have just been listening to Priti Sushil Patel on today defending Boris Johnson and I have never heard such a load of tosh from a politician ever! For instance, she says that Johnson's infamous letter box comments about Muslim women were not racist and sexist mocking..... This contribution to the debate is beyond dishonesty, it is surreal.
Par for the course.....
PS. If you are leaning towards Jeremy Hunt, read MD in PE this week for a devastating assessment about his stint as health minister.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 14 Jun 2019, 11:13

Tripps wrote:
13 Jun 2019, 12:35
Rod Stewart has just been interviewed - he says he will enable Brexit...
Well, I guess Rod Stewart might be a better PM than the lot of them, including Rory Stewart! :smile:
Stanley wrote:
14 Jun 2019, 03:46
Ian I agree entirely. The damage done already will take 50 years to fix, throw your own guess at post-Boris....
I agree fully with Ian's post too.
Stanley wrote:
14 Jun 2019, 03:46
I have just been listening to Priti Sushil Patel on today defending Boris Johnson and I have never heard such a load of tosh from a politician ever! For instance, she says that Johnson's infamous letter box comments about Muslim women were not racist and sexist mocking..... This contribution to the debate is beyond dishonesty, it is surreal.
I listened to that, too, and yes, it was a load of tosh and it's shocking. Here's an excerpt from Matthew Parris's column last Saturday, relating to Boris:
`Wise colleagues inform me that his personal unfitness for the post has been `priced in' so we can forget about it. That he's a habitual liar, a cheat, a conspirator with a criminal pal to have an offending journalist's ribs broken, a cruel betrayer of the women he seduces, a politician who connived in a bid for a court order to suppress mention of a daughter he fathered, a do-nothing mayor of London and the worst foreign secrearty in living memory...such truths are already `priced in' to Mr Johnson.'
[And there's lots more in the article.]

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 14 Jun 2019, 11:28

Tizer wrote:
14 Jun 2019, 11:13
Well, I guess Rod Stewart might be a better PM than the lot of them, including Rory Stewart!
His full name is Roderick James Nugent Stewart. Anyone who looked less like a 'Rory' I can't imagine. I call him Rod. :smile:

The betting puts Boris at 1 to 5 now. I think that's generous, and the true odds are nearer to 1 to 20, or even less. The generous odds I think, price in some kind of Boris type disaster before the end of the contest.

MPs close to Johnson say Lynton Crosby, the Australian election guru who helped him to two mayoral victories, is not officially on board the campaign but speaks to Johnson daily on the phone and is a very close friend.

They are working on the idea that 'it is better keep quiet and let people think you're an idiot rather than speak and remove all doubt'. :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 14 Jun 2019, 11:30

There are 313 Conservatives and 10 unionist MPs merrily tapping away on their typewriters. Eventually these monkeys may construct a name who will be chosen as Prime Minister. If the probability of producing a full name is too remote they may have have to make do with a count of first letter of the contenders name.

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 14 Jun 2019, 15:39

Tripps wrote:
14 Jun 2019, 11:28
MPs close to Johnson say Lynton Crosby, the Australian election guru who helped him to two mayoral victories, is not officially on board the campaign but speaks to Johnson daily on the phone and is a very close friend.
Boris Johnson is also matey with Trump and Farage - imagine those three together! :smile:

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 14 Jun 2019, 17:13

Please can someone explain something to me. Boris says he is preparing for a no deal Brexit as an option, yet when Mrs May suggested that it was voted out and legislation brought in to prevent it. How has this been reversed. Have I mis understood .
If you keep searching you will find it

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tripps » 14 Jun 2019, 17:43

I'll leave that explanation to someone cleverer than me Sue. I've reached the stage where I don't believe anything that any politician says. Boris has only one aim - to be Prime Minister. He thinks he is a re-incarnation of Churchill, and is destined for the job.

He will do / say anything which moves him in that direction. He thinks that being a leaver gives him the best opportunity - if he thought remaining would improve his chance, he'd be a remainer. :smile:
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by PanBiker » 14 Jun 2019, 18:34

QT audience last night was about 85% against Boris when asked on a show of hands. Only one supporter on the panel who was obviously one of the Tories looking at future preservation.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by plaques » 14 Jun 2019, 20:58

Sue wrote:
14 Jun 2019, 17:13
Please can someone explain something to me. Boris says he is preparing for a no deal Brexit as an option, yet when Mrs May suggested that it was voted out and legislation brought in to prevent it. How has this been reversed. Have I mis understood .
My understanding is that when Mrs May's Withdrawal Bill was voted down it looked like she could sit back and leave without a deal. The Letwin / Cooper legislation required her to ask for an extension if this was to happen. Subsequently the leaving date was extended from 12 April to 31 October as per agreement with the EU. Since we are now in the extension period it would require a new motion being raised to stop Boris doing the same thing that Mrs May was hoping to do. Unfortunately, since this second attempt was raised in Corbyn's name it was like a red flag at a bull and it failed.
Does that make sense?

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 14 Jun 2019, 21:31

Sort of, so because of the extension period it over ruled the motion on preventing us leaving without a deal ?
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 15 Jun 2019, 02:22

Sue, nobody is sure but it looks as though once that extension was granted No Deal became the default position unless Parliament ratifies the deal May struck with the EU. No Deal isn't what the EU wants but their hands are tied because that is the only way the promises made to N Ireland by the EU can be guaranteed. I hope I have that right.
All this assumes candidates like Boris are concerned about this. They aren't, all they are after is self-advancement and avoidance of a General Election which would be curtains for the Tories.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Sue » 15 Jun 2019, 07:09

I understand the rest Stanley , I just did not understand where blocking the no deal had disappeared to. I am still not sure that I do!

Yesterday I was at the The Ruskin Museum in Coniston , a fabulously interesting place. There was a plaque that stated the Eu had provided part funding. Their should have been more of this and then people may have appreciated what we go from the EU.
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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Tizer » 15 Jun 2019, 09:04

You're not alone, Sue. I don't think anybody fully understands the issue now and, as others say here, there's a lot of lying and misinformation going on.

The BBC has this on its web site this morning: `The Daily Telegraph reports on what it calls a "secret plan" to ensure that only Mr Johnson's name is put to the party membership - to avoid damaging party in-fighting. It says the idea was hatched in the whips' office by senior cabinet members not linked to any of the campaigns. Under the proposal, the remaining contenders would bow out late next week - but the article says the biggest hurdle will be to convince the party chairman, Brandon Lewis. He is said to be determined for the candidates to be grilled by Tory members in every region of the UK over a four-week period.'

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Re: POLITICS CORNER

Post by Stanley » 16 Jun 2019, 02:10

Politics is a dirty game and it wouldn't surprise me Tiz. Everyone assumes that Brexit is the most important matter at the moment but this is far from the truth. The matter foremost in the Tory mind at the moment is surviving in power and we could see some surprising twists in the process that aims to do that.
If they do do that and even prorogue Parliament it will be even more of a betrayal than Cameron or May. The only consolation is that for all their perceived bumbling, the opposition parties are aware of this. We may yet see a Commons revolt. I hope so.....
It could all be solved tomorrow with a letter rescinding the application to leave.....
Later... I see that Jeremy Corbyn is being attacked for saying the obvious, that there is no smoking gun in the accusation of Iranian attacks against the oil tankers in the Straits of Hormuz. Jeremy is not alone and some cracks are beginning to appear in what has been put forward by Trump and Bolton as an open and shut case. The owners of the tanker supposedly attacked with limpet mines say that this is untrue, the cause of the damage was 'flying objects'. Further, an expert on Iran is asking why the regime should attack a Japanese tanker on the day the Japanese PM visits the regime. Remember the cast iron case for WMD that led to the Iraq incursion?
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