Coronavirus (Covid19) Corner

[Big Kev]

What I need is a simple word that describes her question swerving talent. Any offers?

Socraticnation

[Tripps]

That's good.


I'm tryimg ' Interrogative logophobia ' but it's not sharp enough. . .

[plaques]

obfuscation. in polite circles.

[Marilyn]

Ask a teenager. Most of them have the same gift. Don’t ask them to spell it for you though...

[Stanley]

How about sycophant?
I was watching an M R James horror story last night ('Whistle and I'll come to you'). The main character is a very fusty Cambridge Don and listening to him avoiding a direct answer to whether he believed in ghosts reminded me of the talent you observed in the Frau Doktor Doktor David.
Reminds me of a joke. Snatch of conversation overheard in a Cambridge cloister as two Dons walked past; "...and ninthly...".
I heard the woman as well David. It all goes back to our discussion about 'herd immunity'. None of them dare speak its name.
Read MD this week in PE.
"Wow - two senior members agree with me. That doesn't happen very often if ever."
Don't get too excited David. it could mean you are becoming an old Codger.

[Tizer]

It all goes back to our discussion about 'herd immunity'.

Nothing wrong with herd immunity - it's simply a state in which a large enough proportion of herd members are immune to to the specific infectious agent such that the agent can no longer spread. Each infectious agent requires a specific proportion and this varies widely. The trouble is that people out there are using the term and not always saying whether they're referring to natural or artificial (vaccination) means of achieving herd immunity. Relying on natural immunity requires us to accept that many people will die before the required population immunity is reached to prevent further transmission. This is why we vaccinate against many diseases - to avoid millions of deaths or life-changing illnesses that would arise it we left it to nature. We allowed ourselves to be caught out by covid-19 and we're forced through a natural route to herd immunity until we have a working vaccine and have vaccinated the necessary proportion of individuals. In the meantime we need to protect the most vulnerable. Fortunately we have developed or found some drugs that can help prevent some deaths but they don't prevent infection. At the moment we want to achieve herd immunity but still don't know whether it will last for months or years. That's why vaccination is best; if immunity is short at least we can vaccinate more often. With natural herd immunity we'd have to keep accepting waves of deaths and illness.

If we'd locked down hard at the very start of the pandemic we wouldn't be in such a bad situation now. I remember that even when the UK public went into lockdown we were still allowing thousands of airline passengers from centres of infection to enter the UK every day and not isolate. But it doesn't help that we're a nation of stroppy b*ggers (not OGers of course!) and always breaking rules. Wuhan is back to normal life, as Chinatyke will confirm.

[Tripps]

Snatch of conversation overheard in a Cambridge cloister as two Dons walked past; "...and ninthly..."

And I thought I had copyright on that joke - though I say seventhly. Many people move about with their head in a smart phone. I saw a young lady riding a bicycle - no hands - and reading a book. File under - 'Only in Cambridge'

Nothing wrong with herd immunity

Except perhaps the name. It has been said that modern people don't like being referred to as a herd.
Community immunity has been suggested as an alternative.

It's often mentioned at the moment, but very doubtful if there is any evidence that it exists for this virus. There is the occasional case mentioned where someone has been reinfected. It's related to the common cold - though there are many versions of that - and you can get many of them.

We'll get all these questions answered in a few years time. 'If we're spared' as Terry Wogan use to say.

[Stanley]

One of the advantages of old age and having read history is I can go back a long way. In the 1930s the universal belief among politicians was "The Bomber will always get through", they also believed that this would lead to panic and the breakdown of society with all that involved. When the bombing started they were surprised and delighted to find that the opposite was true and so was born 'the Blitz Spirit'
I believe that our present leadership have decided that if they tell the truth and admit that the only way the present situation will be resolved is when either the virus mutates and loses its strength or we get a viable vaccine, at which point we can claim herd immunity and relax our guard. They don't believe that Joe Public will accept this and buckle down. They expect a break down in society just as the 1930 politicians did. Could they be as wrong now as they were in the Thirties?
Later, I have just heard that they are testing BCG to see if it has any effect on Covid. I wonder whether the massive doses I was on during my recent immunotherapy treatment for Bladder Cancer count?

[plaques]

Stanley you are forgetting 'Shock Tactics' where governments introduce rules under the pretext of protecting the population. The coronavirus pandemic has allowed Boris Johnson to introduce draconian conditions without the scrutiny of Parliament which at first seemed reasonable but as time moves on looks more like incompetent panic. At some point we are going to have face the fact that there is no short term action that will stop the virus. Locking people down is socially unacceptable and leads to other unintended consequences. Shutting down the hospitality industry and paying wages to offset extreme hardship does nothing to stop the virus in the long term. Meanwhile the NHS still suffering from previous years of under investment has now reached breaking point which is becoming more evident every day. Isn't it time to make sure that the NHS has the means and infrastructure to deal with the problem rather that some vague promises to build 40 new hospitals in some distant future that will never happen. People are going to be ill and sadly some will die but this is the nature of the problem. To offset this we should be putting ourselves in a position to deal with the problem like better immediate health care and backup services plus care home services which are currently run on minimal socialist support and maximum capitalist profit.
Time to cut out the bluster and get on with something constructive.

[Marilyn]

Don’t want to speak out of turn, but severely curtailing the hospitality industry has to happen. You need to stop people mingling and coming in close contact. That should not stop business from doing take-away and socially distanced home delivery ( which is what we have done), but you need to stop the pub culture and get togethers. I know ( I know) that people feel it is their fundamental right to gather. But they can’t. It must stop.

[Tripps]

The Mayor of North Tyneside (Labour) along with several other Northern Mayors was in a protest via Zoom online, against the Government's new restrictions which heavily leaked, are about to be announced on Monday and take effect from next Wednesday. He said that people affected by HS2 through no fault of their own were to be compensated 100% and that was quite right and proper. He then developed his argument to say that anyone who lost his job through no fault of his own because of Covid should similarly be reimbursed by 100% of their pay.

That's logical isn't it? He had no time for the Chancellors new scheme which will replace the 'furlough' scheme shortly, and pay about two thirds of peoples pay. The Mayor of Liverpool asked if they could pay two thirds of their bills. He's sharp.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham, (Labour) said that offering people on minimum wage two thirds of their pay would take their pay to a level which was probably illegal. Good luck with that one.

Ponder on that for a few moments. This situation gets worse but very slowly. You'll have heard about boiling the frog? I'm sympathetic to the situation that many will find themselves in shortly and having a secure income - sufficient for my needs - which derives totally from the State, feel a bit guilty in comparison.

The politicians with super timing have been told by IPSA that they may be in line for an extra £3000 a year from next April, and the triple lock for pensions,is said to be safe in their hands. Since most of those that decide will be benficiaries - that doesn't come as any surprise.

[Stanley]

Good and sensible posts. You're right Ken, I had left that out of my argument.
One thing that does strike me is that one explanation for the government suddenly interacting with the Northern mayors is that the promise to consult Parliament and allow them a debate only applies to National measures. As long as they act locally they can continue to govern by diktat.
Maz, you aren't speaking out of turn as far as I am concerned. How can it be OK for people with diminished responsibility due to alcohol be allowed to mix in bars when it is illegal to have one guest in your home with responsible behaviour? I can't see any sense in it. Then there is the milling about in the street at chucking out time, the all night supermarkets selling booze to take home and the off-licences.

[plaques]

The hospitality industry is getting a bad press certainly the risk in some areas is far greater than others and as far as I can see many of the outfits in the restaurant trade are making big efforts to make it as safe as possible but there will always be some degree of risk. The danger is that we become Bible bashers pushing our lifestyles on others. Sat on the precipice of eternity I could easily say close all pubs ban alcohol completely, ditto smoking, football, cricket. formula 1, TV, High street shops, the list is endless. I've had my share of life but there are millions who are just setting out on theirs why shouldn't they enjoy some of the freedoms that I've had. Every country has laws of the land which we all agree are there to protect the population yet prisons are full to overflowing. The covid-19 debate sufferers from the problem no matter what rules and restrictions you put in place somebody somewhere will break them. To my mind the answer is educating everyone that they have a responsibility to protect others. Not an easy task but possible in the long term. Unfortunately the long term may not exist for some and we have to set our own rules but covid-19 is going to be with us for a long time so we had better get our act together and start this education process as quickly as we can.

[Marilyn]

All things CAN happen safely, Plaquey. It just requires good systems, forward planning and patience by patrons/clients.
I know this is not the way to enjoy life, but being safe must come before enjoyment.
I have got used to walking behind my husband in single file....just to give others space.

[Tizer]

Later, I have just heard that they are testing BCG to see if it has any effect on Covid. I wonder whether the massive doses I was on during my recent immunotherapy treatment for Bladder Cancer count?

In the early days of the pandemic there were reports being propagated on social media claiming that if you'd been vaccinated with BCG it would prevent you from getting covid-19. The WHO very quickly put out a press release stating that it wouldn't prevent infection but that they had two studies under way to determine whether or not giving a BCG injection could help once you'd got the infection by reducing or preventing the severe effects of the covid-19 virus. The WHO studies were promising and now the University of Exeter has started a trial with 1000 participants. They point out the vaccination given in childhood would probably not benefit adults who would need a new vaccination with BCG. In this respect Stanley would presumably benefit from his recent BCG - it wouldn't prevent him getting infected but would help protect him if if he did get covid. The effect of BCG would be more like a drug than a vaccine in that it would alleviate symptoms but wouldn't generate the antibodies and white blood cells to fend off the covid virus.

There is BBC news article here: `BCG: Can a vaccine from 1921 save lives from Covid-19?' LINK

[PanBiker]

How do pandemics end - BBC - 60 generations of pandemics:

How do Pandemics End

[Big Kev]

How do pandemics end - BBC - 60 generations of pandemics:

How do Pandemics End

A good read.

[Tripps]

I started to pay my BBC TV licence again recently. I thought of not doing so, but I' not a natural rebel, and have enough on my plate at the moment without fighting off the people from Capita.

The urge returns though when I see items like this. Was it intended for ten year old children? It seems so, and why is an item which covers 60 generations illustrated by the now standard, compulsory, mixed race family.

Such families exist of course, and why shouldn't they, but not in the proportion seen in modern broadcasting, and advertising where it's getting close to 100%.

[Big Kev]

The urge returns though when I see items like this. Was it intended for ten year old children?

I don't think it was intended to be an indepth piece, the majority of people would read it as bullet points. It was reasonably informative which could prompt people to do further reading.

With regard to the 'mixed race family' I had to go back and look again as I didn't even notice that in first viewing

[Tripps]

Fair enough Kev - it's probably me - it usually is.

[PanBiker]

Neither did I. I just saw it in my Google feed and thought it a very easily understandable breakdown of previous pandemics and in context with what we have now.

[Tizer]

Tripps, we still have 20% of the adult population with a reading age equivalent of 11 years. The BBC has a duty to communicate important facts to them as well as the more accomplished readers. There is also the problem of attention span which has been decreasing as smartphones etc became more common. I don't understand your comment about the compulsory mixed race family - there are only three black faces in the article - although I agree that all the `media' in general give an impression that the UK has far more people of other ethnicities than is actually the case. But that's media people for you!

In the meantime, I think we're definitely heading for another lockdown unless the magic fairy intervenes...
`Covid: Second national lockdown possible, says top UK scientist' LINK

[Stanley]

I get more common sense from reading this thread than in all the 'informative' content put out by our 'leaders'. As Tiz says, the BBC article is what I call the 'idiots guide' and as such would be effective if the people it was intended for read it. But very few will. I go back to my crustacean theory, there are too many people in all fields of life who have taken up a position and eaten their brains.
Thanks for the reassurance about my massive doses of BCG Tiz. I hope I never have to test the theory! I still wonder about Covid and nicotine but that is a very unpopular route to protection! I think it may have slightly more going for it than Trump's injections of bleach but am not pushing it.
Loved the Maz comment about walking behind Dave. In that at least she is deferring to him!
Carry on with the good work, somewhere someone may be reading this.

[Marilyn]

There is less friction travelling in the jet stream, Stanley

[plaques]

Boris Johnson is shortly to declare is three stage lockdown levels ranging from 1) Bankrupt, 2) Oh' my God. 3) What's the point. Imagine running a business trying to predict the course of a virus in order to keep your firm afloat. Schrödinger's cat problem easy peasy by comparison. Pendle along with Burnley is one of those swing areas where the numbers can fluctuate from day to day. My own little problem of whether to book another Sports Centre session and possibly a celebratory meal at a local restaurant is small beer compared with the logistics of running a business against this background. Dealing with the virus fallout is bad enough but faced with the prospects of a Brexit balls up and negative interest rates, (paying the banks to look after your money), more automation fewer jobs, its difficult to remain optimistic about anything this government says or promises.