ENERGY MATTERS

[Tizer]

Thanks Pluggy for all that information. The more we know the better we can make decisions. We too are on a low tariff, thanks to Mrs Tiz signing us up to it a while ago even though it look expensive at the time.

Deciding what to do in the future about heating the house is still difficult but one thing I'd be doing is having thick insulation panels fitted on the outside facing walls, either the interior face or, preferable, the exterior face. When we had 50 mm panels of PIR foam backed by plasterboard fixed on the inside of the solid stone walls in our old village house it made a dramatic change. Not just in the amount of energy needed to heat the house but also in the comfort factor, which often doesn't get mentioned. My preferred design now would be at least 50mm insulation on the outer surface of walls but also 10 or 25 mm on the inside surface, all depending on how much space you can sacrifice in the rooms.

In this house the main bedroom has a north-facing wall which is covered completely, side to side, top to bottom, by a fitted wardrobe. There is no back to the wardrobe and at this time of year you can feel the cold when you open the doors in the morning. Recently I fitted 10mm thick foam board over all the exposed wall surface and it makes a worthwile difference.

[Pluggy]

For the luddites, there is a big difference in efficiency between an air-air system like mine and the standard air-water system that the majority of people fit. The big downside of air-air systems is that they don't do hot water which is why most people fit an air to water system. An air to water is also vastly more expensive to fit, you've seen the figures 10 - 15 grand for a tyipical house (less £5000 with the government incentive) . My single indoor unit cost a grand total of £1320 which is considerably less than the typical £3000 to have a new boiler fitted. And thats including a surcharge for giving back word on a totally separate second unit which we abandoned because some fool (me) had buried power cables under the plaster many moons ago. I live in a conservation area, which means officially I can only have one external unit, (The thinking was I'd get away with 2 because 1 would be at the front of the house and 1 would be at the rear and nobody would notice). The buried cables put paid to that idea. The single unit has proven its worth and I now know the finer details of installing an air to air system (2 blokes could fit one in an afternoon). Ive decided trading up to a multi system is the way to go, The second in door unit will be at the opposite end of room(s) where the send single unit was planned to go, and the 50mm dia hole that needs to be drilled through the wall isn't going to run foul of some fools buried cables. Price of the hardware is around £1600 all in,https://www.air-heatpumps.com/Mitsubish ... /SCM45ZS-W but I think the one indoor unit I have can stay put and just put a new outdoor unit and 1 new indoor unit. Fitting I expect to be around £500. Worst case scenario is they put the new indoor units pipe work through the existing 50 mm hole (which is a fair proportion of the fitting cost) and they only have to drill 1 more hole. The power connection to the outdoor unit can be reused for the new multi unit. Regarding the efficiency of an air-air sytem being more efficient , the claimed SCOP (seanonal co-efficient of performnace) of my exisating unit is 4.9, versus a good air to water of aound 3.5) The new multi system the SCOP is slightly lower at 4.7. There are good technical reasons for this which I won't go into. The conservation area thing is the reason I haven'y put external cladding on this property. They just won't entertain it. It has to continue looking like a late Victorian end terrace. Since I can justifty this from a purely financial perspective the saving the planet thing is a possible second benefit. The approximate 2 tonnes of Co2 a year it saves needn't enter into the equation.

Don't believe what the conservative press tells you. Even the better quality Telegraph and even the Times are secombing to the default knee jerk poor reporting, conspiracy theories and pseudo science of their tabloid brethren. the tabloids are essentially comics for adults.

[Stanley]

I realise this is totally the wrong response but the scale of modifications and alterations involved in perfecting insulation and fitting air to air heat exchangers is way beyond my tolerance levels. Put it down as an age thing. I have enough on my plate surviving. (Laying a few metres of carpet in the kitchen this week was about my limit....)

[plaques]

Pluggy you've obviously spent a lot of time and energy working out what's best for you. Unfortunately not everybody has the expertise to fine tune it as you have done. I hope your plans work out OK.

Don't believe what the conservative press tells you. Even the better quality Telegraph and even the Times are succumbing to the default knee jerk poor reporting, conspiracy theories and pseudo science of their tabloid brethren. the tabloids are essentially comics for adults.

Exactly. Heat pumps are the latest Tabloid bandwagon. Unfortunately, for older houses with combi-boilers and no cylinder capacity the costs get a lot more complicated and expensive.

[Pluggy]

Old badly insulated house (Victorian end terrace with sold walls) with a 15 litre hot water. undersink heater which actually does The bathroom and kitchen hot taps, no cylinder as such and we have an electric shower which heats it as it uses it. Accidents of history meant we've only ever had an electric shower and the hot water solution was a cheap way of getting round an old flakey combi boiler. (It worked wonderfully well if it just did the radiators but fell over frequently if you used the hot water..... )

I haven't touched the insulation or hot water solution since long before I even thought of using an air conditioner. Yes I monitor it like a fanatic, ,because I want to know what it actually costs not what I think it costs flavoured by other peoples opinions and hearsay and the first I know is when a ridiculous energy bill arrives.

What I'm doing would be repeatable for probably little more than the cost of replacing a knackered Combi boiler on an existing Central heating system. Including having a similar hot water system and electric shower installed. (probably around 300 quid + labour on top of said air conditioner). An upside that I haven't mentioned but is fairly obvious is on the few days a year when it gets a tad warm you can actually use it as an air conditioner

No baths or deluge showers though and a air conditioner would get pricier with more than a couple of indoor units.

I watched someone on youtube who had it done in the UK with a large house which cost £8000 (2 outdoor units and a total of 7 indoor units) They had turned down a "traditional" air to water heat pump where the quote was 20 grand including the government incentive and some underfloor heating (now that is pricey and disruptive) which is a big help with the limited water temperature.

But whatever, I'll shut up now.

[Big Kev]

But whatever, I'll shut up now.

Please don't, I'm following this with interest. The only use of gas at Chez Kev is for heating and hot water to the sinks, everything else is electric (cooking, shower). There is a four year old condensing combi and, at current rates, costs around £800 a year to run. There are radiators in 5 rooms but we only have the TRVs on in four of them.
Going on the lifespan of combi boilers an air to air heating system, and 'point of use' electric water heaters fof kitchen and bathroom sinks, could be a viable option in 5 years time.

[Stanley]

I'll second that Stephen, don't shut up. You are to be commended for all the work you have done to try to really understand the problems with energy use. Did you ever solve the problem of teenagers and energy consumption?

[Tizer]

And I'll third it! Like Kev, `our only use of gas is for heating and hot water to the sinks, everything else is electric (cooking, shower)'. Your information is much appreciated, Pluggy. Government information is pretty useless and I don't trust claims from the companies offering to provide `solutions'. (As I write this the postman has just delivered a letter inviting us to take advantage of the government's £1000 grant for installing a battery for our solar panels.) It brings back memories of the cowboys doing cavity wall insulation decades ago, often failing to fill the cavities completely and generally making a mess.

Talking of cavity wall insulation, the previous owner of our house had it done with polystyrene beads, black coloured and supposedly containing graphite to make it more efficient. When our plumber fitted a combi boiler and drilled a hole through the wall black beads fell out. I hate to think what it would do to our cavity insulation if we had 50mm holes made through the walls!

By the way, Pluggy, is Cathy right that it's your birthday today? If so, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

[Pluggy]

Yes its my birthday today, such as it is at 65, we're having a celebratory brunch at the cafe on the square later on.

I wouldn't worry about the 50mm hole standard practise on these new fangled properties with cavity wals is to put a piece of 2" drain pipe to seal off the cavity when they've drilled it.

There a lot of cowboys in all areas.. I've just had our roof relaid because damp was coming in, They had to remove the solar panels to do so. . The bod in charge was my daughters boyfriend and he took some photos while he was up there doing it.. The solar panel fitters back in 2011 made a bodge of the job. There were quite a few broken slates under the panels and I was sold them as LG panels which were regarded as being pretty good back in the day (they got out of the solar market since) but it turns out they actually used Suntech panels a chinese firm that went to the wall two years after they were fiited. I suspect the fitters (who have also ceased trading) got them cheap because the panels were fitted with oddball connectors rather than the near ubiquitos connectors they have used for a long time. It seems they didn't have any of said oddball connectors and they cut the connectors off and crimped and taped a couple of joints to join the uplink cables to the panels. There are 2 panels that would need to be cut off to remove them altogether. They got around it by stacking the panels on the scaffolding and keeping them joined. I suppose they worked because they haven't given any trouble the pas 11+ years.

In answer to Stanleys question, the teenager problem sorted itself when she moved out a few years back Shows how long I've been around on this forum, The "teenager" aka my daughter Heather is 30 this year. The baby in my avatar picture, my granddaughter Charlotte is dong a good impression of being a leggy teenager herself (11 in a couple of days). Energy consumption has been going up since I've been becoming ever more disabled. Electric disablilty "toys" that need charging and installation of Jeff Bezos spy (Alexa, but I wouldn't be without now) hasn't done the electric consumption any good

[Stanley]

My biggest use of leccy is my weekly cook in and machinery in the shed if I am using it but that's actually less demanding than cooking. I try to use as little hot water as possible and that's gas fired so on the whole I think I am a fairly low level consumer and have often wondered how families with teenagers get on.....
Your cautionary tale about the solar panel fitting reminds me of the reason why I used to climb chimneys, not because I liked it but because I got better work out of the steeplejacks if they knew I was coming up to keep an eye on the job. The last time I had someone up on the roof was to attend to my cowl on the chimney and I'm pretty sure they botched the job because I can see from the ground that they used plastic electrical ties to do the job!
I agree totally with Peter. I trust the information we get from you far more than any other source, keep informing us!
PS. Talking about energy prompted me to look at the BG account. Bear in mind I don't maintain a credit via direct debit, I pay all the leccy and gas monthly. The position at the moment is that they say my total dual spend is £285 per month. I am £290 in credit due to government subsidies and when they get their act together and reply to the Ombudsman Services I will be getting a credit paid into my account of £100. So the bottom line is that I am not paying anything but won't know exactly how my account stands until they get round to sending me the next statement.

[Big Kev]

I am currently £350 in credit with my electric, I have requested a refund as my current monthly payment is sufficient to cover usage.

[Big Kev]

The financial cost of having a prepayment meter is to be brought into line with credit meters. I wonder how the energy companies will recoup the costs of having to do that?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64930953

[Big Kev]

A swimming pool in Devon is using the 'waste' heat, from a data centre, to keep the water warm. Sounds sensible to me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64939558

[plaques]

I have often wondered whether Colne swimming pool has heat exchanges when they dump water for filter back washing or 'accidents' from kiddies which require water to be dumped. 20 cubic meters approx at each dump. All needed to be heated back up through 50F to 87F. A lot of water and a lot off heat.
Must ask the question some time.

[PanBiker]

In Iceland apart from the Blue Lagoon lava fields outdoor swimming area which is heated by natural thermal springs. They use the naturally super heated ground water which is first fed to the power station to run the electricity turbines. It then goes to heat social housing, the costs are highly subsidised, after that it is fed to pipes laid under the streets and pavements in Reykjavik to keep them ice free. Final destination is into a small cove where it is used to heat the sea. They imported a container ship of sand from the Saudi dessert because they don't have any in exchange for some fish of which they have plenty and used it to create an artificial sandy beach in the same area. This was done so that folk can take their kids with buckets and spades and go in for a paddle, or indeed a swim. Proper use of natural resources!

[Stanley]

I thought it was sensible as well but was surprised that a small data centre 'the size of a washing machine' gave off enough heat to do the job. I thought it would be low grade heat but lots of it. For heating water like that you need a far higher grade of energy.....

[Big Kev]

Ovo Energy have released a fixed price tariff, it's less than the current variable rate but 'experts' are saying to be cautious. The wholesale price of energy is predicted to drop even further by summer so potentially better deals will be available.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65080014

[Big Kev]

Despite the wholesale cost of petrol and diesel being the same (around £1.15 a litre) there's a 20p difference at the pump. Sounds like profiteering to me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65098942

[Stanley]

I heard a discussion on the radio on that subject Kev and they came to the same conclusion.
I haven't yet reached a conclusion with British Gas. Quite amazing how they can agree to everything with the Ombudsman but still fail to send me an account. I haven't had one since January..... They are driving me potty and I have just written to Peter my representative at the Ombudsman Services to ask him to do something!

[Pluggy]

The IT world is panicking because of the dramatic developments in Artificial Intelligence the last few months (google GPT4 or its older sibling chatGPT for details) meanwhile at the other end of the scale EDF sends me an email inviting me to renew my energy contract or I'll be moved to the standard variable tariff, So I login and have a look and the only option is Standard variable tariff......

I'm hoping there will be other options by the time the contract actually ends at the end of April. Its a two year contract started a week or two before the prices started getting silly and at the standard variable tariff electricity will be just shy of doubling and gas will more than triple.

[Stanley]

Welcome to our world Stephen......
PS. I have had a response from my man Peter at the Ombudsman's Office. He is asking British Gas the right questions about my invisible account.....

[Big Kev]

An estimate, by E.ON Next, of my coming year's consumption has added £11 a month to my monthly payments. It looks to have been a wise decision to adjust the payments myself back in October last year or I would have been looking at an £80 increase. I'm expecting a decrease in energy costs as the wholesale gas price is due to fall even further by summer. Then would be a good time to look at a fixed tariff

[Tizer]

`Lithium: A white gold rush excites Cornwall - but who gains?' LINK
I've extracted this from the article because I believe it's the important bit...

Loveday Jenkin, a Mebyon Kernow member of Cornwall Council .... welcomes the prospect of high-quality jobs in keeping with Cornwall's tradition of skilled engineering. But she doesn't want to see lithium mined here exported abroad. She asked: "Why don't we have a lithium battery factory in Cornwall?" It's a good question, and an awkward one for the UK.

Currently, the UK only has one large battery factory in operation - the Chinese-owned Envision plant in Sunderland. A second Envision plant is under construction, while a third - Britishvolt - is floundering after collapsing into administration at the start of this year. In the race to build these so-called gigafactories, the UK is lagging behind the likes of China, which is estimated to have more than 100 active plants. Even in western Europe, there are 38 gigafactories either operational or planned, according to the Faraday Institution.

Can the UK catch up? Simon Moores, managing director of consultancy Benchmark Minerals, has his doubts. He says the UK is losing the "global battery arms race" after "hesitating over any kind of strategy on electric vehicles and lithium for a long time". Benchmark Minerals has calculated that the UK needs to spend about £100bn to spark a new electric vehicle industry - £20bn to set up new gigafactories and £80bn to build the supply chain that feeds it. Without this battery ecosystem, the future of the UK's automotive industry is hanging in the balance. "As a Brit, I'm very concerned about that," Mr Wrathall says. "But in terms of what we're doing with Cornish Lithium, we'll export it if there's no automotive industry here. It would be a tragedy."
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As we lose our car industry other countries are taking over. On a TV programme last night we saw a visit to Vinfast, a new manufacturer of electric cars set up in Vietnam. The presenter drove one of the cars, which looked just like most you see on streets here, and he was very impressed. The production line was as high tech as any in the west too. But most impressive of all was when he asked the CEO how can you find people with the skills to do this high tech work? The answer? The company has set up its own schools for children of the factory workers and its own university to give them the training needed for 21st Century jobs. Perhaps our UK companies should be doing the same, and not just for car manufacture. For example, it would be the ideal answer to the house-building problem where our workers are way behind those on the Continent and in Scandinavia.

[Stanley]

I suspect that any time Britain has been a 'world leader' it has been by accident, we just happened to have resources like coal iron ore and lime and a population large enough to create a demand. The only resources we have in quantity now are wind and wave power. Instead of putting £100billion into the electric car industry we tried to build a new railway line to the North and failed..... At the moment we are doing the same again with obsolete atomic power stations and white elephant aircraft carriers. Mundane, run of the mill investment in basic technology and services doesn't generate useful headlines for politicians, they go for the big ticket glamour items.
No, Cornwall will end up being exploited again, exactly the same thing that happened to the north. forget levelling up.....

[Stanley]

I have just sent my Ombudsman buddy, Peter, a sitrep. No word yet from British Gas. I checked my website. My smart meter readings are up to date. The last payment was taken from my DD on 23 January 2023, nothing since even though the website confirms I am on a standard variable monthly account for both leccy and gas.
I find this totally weird. I should add that Peter is aware of the problem and is talking to BG. That's why I find it so strange and have given him the latest position.