MYSTERY OBJECTS

[PostmanPete]

Is it referring to the lorry drivers with 6 gear lorries coasting downhill in neutral (overdrive) and therefore using the non-existant 7th 'silent' gear..?

[Stanley]

Nothing scary about transport caffs Eileen, only some of the blokes that used them! Pete has it right, also known as Aberdeen Overdrive.

[PostmanPete]

Pete has it right, also known as Aberdeen Overdrive.

I remember my Dad telling me about this when I was a kid and I used to accompany him on the numerous drives from Workington to Middlesbrough to see his Dad. We used to stop at a wonderful transport cafe near Bowes. I can still recall the marvellous taste of the bacon, sausage and eggs washed down with a (cracked) mug of hot tea.
I still 'get my kicks' on the A66, everytime I drive along it to visit the Lakes

[Stanley]

Pete, I detect the signs of cab-fever, if you'd taken a different course you'd have been as hooked as the rest of us. Being 'Cab-Happy' was well recognised, that's why we put up with the hours and the horrible conditions, just about the only job where you were your own boss in the days before cell phones! You can laugh but I still have perfect recall of coming out of the narrow gates at Ayr auction mart on a Tuesday afternoon, taking a hard right turn into the narrow road and watching the trailer end, 60 feet away. still threading its way through the gate and knowing that the farmers in the yard were scratching their heads and wondering how it could be done.



King of the Road. Biggest wagon in Barlick in 1972 when this pic was taken outside Yew Tree Farm West Marton. Very hard but happy days.



Now then, sticking with wagons, what's this and tell me the story behind it....

[Bodger]

Was there more than one Leyland clock ?, i remember cycling past one but i'll be buggered where, the old "east Lancs" or the Blackpool Rd. ? pre Motorway days, or on second thoughts the A1?

[Whyperion]

There is one Leyland Clock , supposedly from the Location outside the Leyland Factory , in the Cobham Bus Museum ( London Bus Preservation Trust ) , now relocated to the Brooklands museum site - nothing beats showing off old items than a new , warm and dry building. So were there more clocks at Leyland service dealers around the country or one at one end of the factory and one at the other ?



Sorry I was wrong about the original location of the clock , the flickr depictor , of the clock in is Cobham museum location tells us , Leyland clock Cobham bus museum. 11/04/10
Leyland clock in the Cobham bus museum in Surrey. This is one of seven such clocks erected in prominent roadside positions around the country in the 1930's to advertise Leyland vehicles. This particular clock came from near the Shack Cafe in Hook in Hampshire and was erected on 29th July 1931 where it stood until the early 60's. All seven were to a simlar design but no two were the same. This is now one of five that have surrvived. with thanks

Comment on flickr page, Hook Focus which is the Hook Community magazine carries an artice on this clock and a cover photo in the Jan 2012 issue email focuseditors@aol.com to reveive a scan.

[Stanley]

Bodge, you are right and I knew of three, one on the road out of Preston going towards Blackpool, one on the East Lancs Road and this one. The pic was taken in the yard of Kendal Museum where it stands now b ut originally it stood on the right hand side of the road, going North, about a quarter of a mile above the Jungle Café. When Leyland decided they weren't going to maintain them any longer this one was removed to the museum where it still tells the time.
Now then, a question for you, what's the origin of the logo above the clock?

[Whyperion]

Good question , and one where the internet does not throw up an obvious or clear answer. So , from http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2011/10 ... e-ar-logo/ we can conclude that this > logo was originated in 1964 following the 1963 merger / .
takeovers that resulted in Leyland Motor Corporation = Leyland Motors Ltd + Standard-Triumph Ltd , 1961 + Associated Commercial Vehicles 1962.


This website refers to the logo as : Colloquially referred to as the ‘catherine wheel’ or ‘flying plughole’, it initially featured an inner ring holding an italicized, sans serif, capital L. and implies it was only for the Commercial Vehicles sections of the organisation ( anyone got any letterheads from 1964 ? ). A make over and redesign for 1965 produced .


In 1967 LMC gained Rover with its Alvis Subsidiary. Meanwhile BMC had in 1966 (Dec) acquired Jaguar Cars Ltd (which included Daimler Buses and Guy Trucks ( were Guy Still making Arab and Wulfrainian buses at that time of takeover ? ). this takeover created British Motor Holdings , which in turn in 1968 was shotgunned into marriage with LMC giving us British Leyland Motor Corporation Limited. .

In 1975 we get a renamed British Leyland Limited

Now we can look at the website of a chap called davidthedesigner , which seems be that he worked for a design company Henrion , whom as the Individual FHK Henrion is claimed as designing the later BL cars logo for 1977/8 http://www.davidthedesigner.com/davidth ... to-th.html .

So whom did come up with the stylised steering ( road ? ) wheel logo. The last version to me looks like a cross between the agitator and the top plastic holder on the spinner of a Duo-matic Twin Tub washing machine.

Oddly I sold a Dinky Atlantean bus in Ribble colours last week ( Bought on Monday , Sold on Wednesday , Gross Profit £2 , I am too cheap and half wanted to keep it but its going on someone elses railway layout )

Bit more of an internet trawl and from http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtop ... &start=270

It was supposed to have been drawn by a junior draughtsman after a pub lunch and his thoughts about the merged company. One of the top brass liked the design without realising what he had commissioned, while another poster said I thought the logo was designed to co-incide with the development of the Gas Turbine truck in the mid 1960`s. The ` logo` was to depict the " spinner " part of the turbine.

Earlier badges of Leyland Include in these styles and for 1963 just before the new design (used on buses only ? )
Still in use in 2010

[Stanley]

I can put you out of your misery. The new logo was brought in when Rover started experimenting with their gas turbine car. Gas turbines were seen as the next big thing and Leyland produced maximum weight tractors with turbines. I might be wrong but I think it was the Bison tractor that had the old 680 diesel replaced by a turbine and the gearbox by a torque converter, then I think they renamed it the Comet. I used to see one regularly at Lanark and knew the driver well, he told me it was nowhere near as good as the conventional engine and guzzled fuel. It was dropped eventually because it was so unreliable but during the enthusiasm of the early days Leyland introduced their new logo based on a turbine rotor.
The wagon in question belonged to a big firm of cattle hauliers who only used Leylands and the firm gave them the tractor to test under normal conditions, I think they did this with several large firms and I doubt if anyone actually bought one. Incidentally the driver was Jack Adams from Yatton near Bristol and he was a bit of a legend. He had a maximum length artic with a double deck cattle box and lived in his cab almost. If the name Yatton rings a bell, this was the village that lost almost all it's women of child-bearing age when they went on a shopping trip to Basle in 1973.

[Bodger]

Stanley, youre excluded !,why is this type of truck known as a "chinese six "
http://www.truck-photos.net/picture/number3556.asp

[PanBiker]

Well it has six wheels. Is it steered on the back axle by any chance?

[Whyperion]

Returning to the Leyland logo , Rover were not part of the Group until 1967 , when Leyland logo was introduced in 1963/4. The Leyland Gas Turbine Truck appeared in 1968 , commerical motor show , per official photograph the L E Y L A N D was prominant and the British Leyland logo a small afterthough ? .

British Pathe were there too . http://www.britishpathe.com/video/comme ... tor-show-1


One of six supplied to fuel delivery companies , one has been restored by a Tony Knowles of Knowles Transport Limited , and shows the logos stuck on the rear crossmember . The exhausts are not the original style , go to http://www.commercialmotor.com/big-lorr ... -built-the for more photos.

But despite the involvement of Rover , would a years development be enough ( probably yes given a small team and the low build numbers ) , or was there unofficial/ minuted JV collaboration in the past ? The loan of a development truck was common Leyland Practice to companies in its area , as problems could be identified by the factory as part of the test programme , and were normally undocumented unless the Leyland History Group has any information in the company archives. (Fishwick of Leyland used to get buses on test , I think they still had to pay - reduced rate on easy terms ? )

The Leyland Journal , Number 2 from 2000 has Fred Boulton, a key member of the design team on this project, recalls this innovative form of propulsion. (Copies from the Leyland Society , £8 inc postage http://www.leylandsociety.co.uk/journal.htm.

The logo was simply a way of the larger group saying , we make things with wheels on , without letterheads , etc getting complicated with the marque names ( which were still retained in most instances ) in the clean design styles of the 1960s.

Bodger , funny I had thought about the question before you asked it. I think ( not looked it up ) a Siamesed pair formation work in tandem , ( from the Twins from said place ) , at a guess a Chinese pair are capable of independent movement ( front wheels turn right , rear steering pair can either go left ( independently or in a proportional gearing ? ) or be locked out of movement. Handy for tight spot situations ? The internet wont help us as http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=368205 , has gone.

[Bodger]

My memory tells me about a truck i saw in Platts of Oldham, dont know the make but it had a Rolls Royce engine, c. 1960 ?

[Whyperion]

Theres a Ford , but its 1969/1970 http://www.commercialmotor.com/big-lorr ... lan-b-reca The Leyland One is still running in 1973 http://www.commercialmotor.com/big-lorr ... -trucks-on Ford USA had one in 1964 http://www.neatoldtoys.com/gasturbine.htm http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/1 ... -and-more/

[Stanley]

Bodge, I'd forgotten the Chinese Sixth till you mentioned it. Clue for the Lads, have a look at funny buses.....
Another funny configuration spawned by the axle weight restrictions was the 'Four in line' axle.

[Whyperion]

50 Years of the Bedford VAL 1962 -2012

Showbus Duxford 16th September 2012

The twin-steer concept was not a new one in the 1960's - during the late 1930's & early 1940's, Leyland built small numbers of single deck twin steer Gnu & Panda models. However, neither design was a success, & following a few twin steer versions of the Tiger, & a change in Ministry of Transport regulations, allowing 30ft (9.15m) PSV chassis on just two axles, the idea was dropped. But why did Bedford (1962) go for the twin steer arrangement? One key factor was those small 16in diameter wheels. 20in had been virtually universal on both buses & coaches for many years, but there had been, for 15 years or more, a trend in the field of private cars towards the use of relatively smaller wheels. Such refinement led to reduced weight - not only in the wheel itself, but in its associated suspension & steering gear - & to more available space. On a bus or coach chassis the use of two front axles make smaller wheels practical, & allows the floor height to be lowered eliminating wheel arch intrusion. The arrangement brought with it improved ride quality, & moreover, Bedford was able to use existing parts from their TK truck range, obviating the need to develop a new front axle. Source ( http://wakefieldfiles.co.uk/bedford-val.htm

That says what it is ? But doesn't seem to answer the name. (Leyland Panda = China ?)

[Bodger]

Whyperson, you're very close, the configuration is double steering wheels at the front, and driving wheels at the rear, i stand to be corrected on that, where the term came from i do not know.

[Tripps]

Well I never! Kenzies is our local coach firm. Still going strong in the next village. Small world.

[Whyperion]

Is it to do with the oar configuration of chinese merchant packet movers in places like hong kong harbour ( two men at the front , steering , load , then further person at back providing power ? Could be degotary given the spacing of the wheels looking like the distance between close eyes ?

I was trying to see if there was an internet picture of Wild's of Barnoldswick with a VAL , ( dont have a fleetlist to hand ) , but could only find one ex-Wilds AEC in service with a firm from Oldham.

Horses have six legs ? Fore at the front and two at the back.

[Stanley]

Bodge, dead right. It came in because the Construction and Use Regulations had a loophole in them and classed 3 axles as same carrying weight no matter where they were. 'Chinese' probably because it was back to front and defied convention. Weak point that killed it was bad turning circle and complicated steering geometry, much easier to fit a trailing, non-powered rear axle. Another factor against them was the introduction of power steering. I can tell you from experience that steering a loaded twin steer was beyond hard work, it was torture especially if the tracking wasn't set up properly. They could eat front tyres as well.

[Bodger]

I never had a "goods" licence, but did drive a chinese six from Hadfield in Derbyshire to Penycuik Scotland with parts of a large glass fibre tank for AlexanderCowans Paper mill, the most scary bit was it's refusal to go around roudabouts, it wanted to go straight on, i had to pussy foot round them, and there was plenty of them, no motorways..
I could never say no to any job, if somebody asked could i do something, it was always a nod, i've done a lot off odd things, from haymaking with both horse & tractor, not at the same time!, hand milking, plumbing, electrical, design engineering, publican, weding, metal & plastic, i suppose my highest achievment if based on position was as a director of Bunzl plc. the longest i was unemployed officialy was six weeks, not bad for a lad who left school at 14.

[Stanley]

Bodge, your CV looks a bit like mine! A friend once commented that it needed editing because it looked like the North Face of the Eiger! I think he might have had a point. One of the things that saddens me these days is the insistence on 'qualifications', many of which are Mickey Mouse and nothing to do with actually getting the job done. This means that young people these days don't have the opportunities to get a wide and varied experience. Many of the esoteric bits of information stowed away in my head come from this experience and always asking questions. Let's have another road transport question and see if anyone knows the answer without trawling the tinternetwebthingy...



Sorry about the quality, rescued from an old negative I was given. This is one of Harrison Brothers' wagons loading bottles at West Marton Dairies in about 1956. An early 'S' Type, it had a 35hp petrol engine and was rated by Bedfords as 7tons. It was used for the afternoon bottle load to Davey's Dairy at Moorside, Bradford and was a very profitable trip because at 26 miles it qualified for the 50 mile rate which was how the MMB paid for bottle delivery in those days. As the load grew over the years the normal length flat wasn't long enough so we lengthened this wagon to a 22ft flat. It got called the Queen Mary after that! Question is, exactly how was it made longer?

[Whyperion]

Only two ways (?) to make it longer , extension at the rear , I guess the chassis is box section , so cut off end , weld in slightly smaller box section into the openings , plate accross the extention and weld rear back on.

More complex is same but a central cut , but I cannot see the prop lengthening and brake pipe re running being worth doing. unless you extended the load bay into the cab ( cosy! )

[Bodger]

Anything to do with aeroplanes ?, thats not how but why the extra length. artic ?.
Inthe 1950s i recall drivers delivering chassis, no cabs, just a seat, and no protection from the elements, the drivers today would'nt go outside, never mind deliver without protection, you would normally see the drivers thumbing home with a pair of trade plates under their arm

[Stanley]

And tramming up and down the country testing designs with large blocks of iron strapped to the bare chassis!
You're not there yet, chase it a bit more, it's an interesting story with sidelights on the freedom we used to have under the old Construction and Use regs.