The Barlick War Memorial Group

[PanBiker]

I concur Peter, at first glance looks like a step in the right direction and certainly something to base discussions on prior to the area committee meeting. I would certainly have no objections to a meet with interested parties although from my point of view it would have to definitely be within the next couple of weeks due to holiday commitments later in the month.

Can I ask who sent you the information, did it come via Ken, DW or the Town Council in general?

[Thomo]

David Whipp Ian, and I think it is the intention to have a meeting sooner than later.

[PanBiker]

The proposals for the Barnoldswick War Memorial site have been published in The Barnoldswick & Earby Times this week.
They are also available in the news section of the Visit Barnoldswick website along with the plans for the proposal which can be found on this link
War Memorial Barnoldswick Scheme Drawing. This is the same drawing that Thomo put up a little earlier in the thread.

The proposal is put up for public consultation, the Town Council is asking for comments in writing before the end of July addressed to the Town Council via their Rainhall Centre address or emailed to david.whipp@dsl.pipex.com

The plans are also available for viewing at the Rainhall Centre where there is a drop in event organised for today (Friday).

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Just to add, I have just been round to the Rainhall Centre and the "drop in" consists of the plan that can be found on the link above.

[Thomo]

I think that ticks most of the boxes Ian, anything else, we will have our say at the forthcoming meeting.

[Whyperion]

Should I let the Town Council know of my approval , or say in some way that I agree with whatever the War Memorial Group think is appropriate ? (PM me if need be)

[PanBiker]

The consultation is on the plan put forward by the council which is the correct way to proceed. The memorial does not belong to the council it belongs to the community so it is only right and proper that they are consulted regarding its care. Any support for what we are trying to achieve is welcome, having said that we already have a commitment from both Town an Borough Councils as they have taken on board our views and produced the present proposal. If you have a view on the proposed plan you can comment as stated above.

I will be making my views known to the council which are basically practical issues and recommendations from the War Memorial Trust that I want to make sure the council are aware of. The proposal in the main looks good to me. Opening up into the car park will remove the issue of conducting the remembrance service with onlookers in the road, which I know has been a concern for the emergency services should the fire tender be required. It will also provide easier access for anyone with a disability. The memorial should be the focal point at that corner and not the vegetation that currently surrounds it. The proposal also addresses this which is a step in the right direction.

If you want to comment you must do it in writing before the end of July. The West Craven Area Committee meeting is in early August with the Town Council meeting following shortly afterwards where the proposal will be discussed an hopefully taken forward.

[Thomo]

I am in full agreement with that Ian, I have mailed you to suggest a meeting tomorrow afternoon, I have a few ideas that I would like to you hear before I pass them on. It is also nice to have Whyperion on board with this, and if anyone else has anything they would like to add, now is the time, post it here.

[Thomo]

Ian, I have mailed you again re meet up, 1400 today at the Fountain Inn any good?

[PanBiker]

It's the West Craven Area Committee meeting tonight where the proposal for the memorial refurbishment will be discussed.

A potential spanner in the works with Pendle's recommendation that the re-cycling bins remain where they are. I think the issues of increased safety for the general public at remembrance services and better egress for emergency services should outweigh the loss of a couple of parking spaces and the perceived potential reduction in re-cycling. They are quoting £7000 to move the bins as well which may be more to the point. It will be a shame if the project get deferred over an issue with the bins.

[Thomo]

£7.000!! how the hell do they come up with a figure like that? £700 each to pick them up and move them 500 yards. It sounds to me like someone in Nelson has plucked that one out of the air to put a spanner in the works, There are a few members of that council who possibly see our War Memorial as unimportant.!!!

[PanBiker]

The report is here Peter put up by Tardis in the Borough Council thread:

Recycling bins move to Rainhall Road

[Thomo]

Clr Whipp made no mention of this when I talked with him this morning.

[PanBiker]

It is an advisory item Thomo but with the caveat of the £7000 hanging over it. I would like to see the justification for this myself as surely the bins will already have a budgeted schedule for emptying, why can't they then simply lift them when emptying but return them 200 yards up the road? Surely the costs cannot all be in the painting of parking bays?

There seems to be a bit of confusion in that the area committee has already agreed to move the bins or at least this is what it says on the visit barlick site, the advisory from Pendle is dated 7th August which is actually today but the report was clearly prepared before that date as Tardis put it up on here on the 2nd August. I suppose the date is for the Area Committee meeting tonight which I have just found out will be held at Salterforth Village Hall at 7.00pm

I will try to make it but we have all three grandchildren at the moment along with parents for a family tea. 7.00pm may be pushing it a bit.

[Thomo]

I received this mail from Panbiker this morning, it clarifies the current position in regard to the town War Memorial:-

Hi Peter,

Just to let you know that I went to the Town Council meeting last night where the memorial was on the agenda for discussion, approval of proposal and agreement of funding level.
David Whipp asked for a few minutes with me before the meeting, he wanted to check that the proposals were to the liking of the War Memorial Group. I confirmed to that effect and we briefly discussed the basic outline of how the names would be added to the new entrance walls. I said that the idea was basically sound and as long as proper provision was made for adding the new memorial stones, the finer details could be worked out later.
They had not had a lot of feedback from the general public with only a couple of responders mainly regarding disabled access issues.
When the item came up on the agenda, the Town Clerk reported that he had liaised with The Royal British Legion and the proposal was also fully acceptable to them. They have expressed a wish that if the work cannot be guaranteed to be completed in good time before the remembrance service this year then the works should be deferred until after remembrance day. I don’t think they want to be in the situation of a “works in progress” situation or a job half done, which I feel is reasonable comment.
The proposal was passed unanimously by the TC and funding for the project was then discussed. The West Craven Area Committee have allocated £4,000 to the project so the Town Council have matched that with a further £4,000. They had £10,000 in the pot but it had to be divided between 3 different projects, which the TC are committed to, I think it’s going to be split 4,4 and 2.
Anyway £8,000 in the pot for the first phase of the project. It was agreed that further funds would be made available as and when we have finalized the names to be added. This will almost certainly be in a new financial year which will give us another good stab at the coffers
I think everyone is basically singing from the same song-sheet and there wasn’t really any arguments against what is being proposed which is good news. We have full support of both official bodies and promises of funding to back it up. I don’t think we could really ask to be in a better position from our point of view
I did mention to David Whipp that there were various protocols and accepted practices that will need to be addressed when we add the names in the second phase. Mainly regarding maintaining typefaces and style and the fact that we would need a re-dedication service at some point. We can address these issues and make our recommendations when we get to the next stage.
So current position is that they are now pursuing Pendle to see how the project can be slotted into their works schedule. If it can be guaranteed before November it will go ahead, if not as soon as is practical at the other side of this year’s remembrance service.

A good result, I think.

Ian.

This well written letter I believe says it all, well done Panbiker.

[Thomo]

This afternoon I had a long telecon with Scott Flaving, historian of the "Dukes" He is very enthusiastic about what we are tying to achieve and has been following our progress. That I was able to speak with him did not come about easily, despite multiple requests to the local history society for contact information for this man I hit a blank wall of silence, however thanks to Ken Ranson I was given a phone No, courtesy of Bob Abel of the Earby Historical Society and I now have Mr Flavings e/mail address as well. To Earby, well done and thank you, To the BHS, wake up, or you may be left behind! What we are trying to do is for all, and not to be kept close to the chest. Pany, check your inbox.

[Thomo]

I received this today from David Whipp:-

Hi Ann-Marie and Peter.

Here’s an update on the refurbishment and changes to the War Memorial area and a request for advice.

Both area committee and town council have approved the refurbishment scheme (subject to some details being sorted out). Each body has allocated £4,000 towards the work.

Pendle’s engineering section is drawing up a tender for the work which will go out soon, with a completion date by the beginning of November.

Rather than get the contractors to replant shrub beds as necessary, the Barnoldswick in Bloom group has agreed to carry out this work as one of the team’s community planting initiatives. The contractors will remove the tree which needs to come out, crown lift as needed and do any other heavy landscaping work.

Pendle Council’s cleansing section have been given firm instructions to get on with moving the recycling site to the Rainhall Road car park. This will be done when trees and shrubs have been cut back to allow the skips into their new home. This is to be done at miminal cost (a new sign and making good the existing area when the fencing is removed).

A revised layout for the disabled parking bays in the Wellhouse Road car park is being discussed with a view to locating these bays as close as possible to the town centre.

A new issue has been mentioned to me about the new access; this is that people will park in front of it. I’ve asked if we could place of planters in this area to prevent inappropriate parking. These could be moved with a pallet truck or forklift as needed. This detail still under consideration.

As agreed, the plaques for the additional names are to be installed in the new walls flanking the new entrance. Provision will be made for suitable recesses to be built into these walls for the new panels to be installed at a later date. The intention is that the panels will be granite similar to the War Memorial and that the size and style of the new lettering would match the existing.

I’m being asked how large these panels should be.

My initial thought is that the First World War panel(s) could occupy one side of the new entrance and need to allow space for up to about 40 names, together with a suitable inscription. A single panel may be most suitable? On the opposite wall, provision would be made for a matching panel (or panels) to accommodate the unrecorded names of those who have lost their lives in later conflicts. As there’ll be fewer names to include on this panel(s), there’ll be quite a bit of blank space. Is this appropriate?

Council staff will be taking advice from monumental masons about the technical requirements, including the size and installation of the panels. To give them something to go on initially, please can you advise what you think will be suitable?

Thanks.

David

This is my reply:-

Hello again David, here we go:- The lettering height of the names for WW1 is app, one inch, For WW2 app, one and a quarter inches, the walls that will carry the panels are thirty eight inches high plus the coping stones on the top.

My suggestion is as follows: If both panels are of equal size the balance will be retained. For WW1 there are at present 33/34 names dependant on your families decision, four columns each to carry ten names, the shallower depth by using this layout would allow for the panels to be mounted higher on the walls, making them far more easy to read, therefore for WW1 you would have three columns of ten names and a fourth of 3/4 allowing space for any further addition.

A panel of 15" high by 60" long minimum would be sufficient.

This for WW2 and other events would equate at present to one column of ten and one of two. this would leave a large blank area, some of which could be used in place of a separate dedication stone as is the case at Earby, there would still be room for any further additions.

How does that idea sound, that is two panels of equal size with minimum dimensions of 15" high by 60" wide.



Regards; Peter.

[PanBiker]

My thoughts would be as follows: If we had four panels at each side rather than one large one, they would be easier to handle and engrave. It would also lower the risk of damage if further names were added again in the future.

This would be in keeping with the rectangular and hence four faces of the existing structure.

On the left, four panels for the First World War additions, headed 1914 - 1919

On the right four panels for 1939 - 1945 and any in later conflicts (yet to be determined). Populate from the left with the outer rightmost stone engraved as a dedication to the new additions.

For the aesthetics of the new additions It would be best to stick to a common engraved text size on both sides as long as it matched the existing text style of the memorial.

[Thomo]

I have passed your thoughts on Ian, and added my own. Perhaps a compromise, two 15" high by 30" wide panels either side, this is intended to be a balance in respect of the height of the new entry walls. I have also offered this, in the restructure schedule, the plaque adjacent to the stone that used to be over the Drill Hall door was to be removed cleaned up and repainted, I have the skills to do this in a professional manner using modern materials that have a longer life, this at no cost to the project. Between us we wil get it right.

[PanBiker]

There are quite a few different ways to do it and I suppose a lot will come down to the recommendations of the mason who will eventually get the job. I think if they are made fully aware of what we need for now and the future and then hopefully get a few recommendations of what can be done in the space available.

I have just re-read the concerns about parking in front of the new access. Planters would be functional and probably the cheapest method. The area could also be managed with sunken bollards, similar to the ones to deny access to the town square. These could be "deployed" as and when required. I would have thought that the area directly in front would be marked up as no parking to allow disabled access which is part of the reason for having the new entrance there in the first place.

[Thomo]

I have just mailed David Whipp with a recomendation that should satisfy all needs:- A single recess in each wall set as near to the wall top as is practical, each recess to accomodate four granite panels of equal dimensions, each 18" high by 15" wide, this gives a recess size of 18" high by 60" long, I have added 3" to the height to accomodate the definition lettering ie, 1914---1918 and 1939---1945, this would occupy the top of the second and third panels. Later I will do an artists impression of how this should look and post it here. What David is after is the size of the recesses to pass on for costing, how the panels are populated can be determined later.

This is just a quick impression of how the panels would appear for the WW2 section and dedication panel, try to imagine that the wall behind is stone.

[PanBiker]

Any names that turn up from later conflicts could be added with a date appended to each one, this is the convention generally used for individual entries and is used already on the existing memorial for such.

I know it's a typo Thomo but 1914 - 1919 would be the range for the First World War to match the memorial.

The names will be ordered alphabetically and inscription size will be determined to some extent by the longest name. For any later conflicts after World War II it would then be conventional to add these chronologically from left to right.

It looks like we have a practical plan coming together here. What we are proposing will meet the recommendations of the War Memorials Trust and should leave some room for the future. Sad that we should be having to think of this but that, unfortunately is a product of the way that the world still operates. Far cry from "a war to end all wars" as was the expectation nearly a hundred years ago.

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I posted the above as you were putting your graphic up Peter. Just one comment, date range positions will depend on how many we eventually end up with on the right hand section. It does give a good idea though of what we are hoping to achieve.

[Thomo]

I missed the 1919 bit Ian and on that note I have several who died even later 1919/20/21/22. What is on the dedication stone is similar to that at Earby, only the date is different, but that may change again. My latest from David is a suggestion that we seek the advice of a stone mason about the merits or pitfalls of the arrangement that I have depicted, as opposed to a separate recess for each panel. I have recomended that he talk to Shaun Bradley and stated that I will be pleased to accompany him should such a meeting take place. I will post the alternative artwork later. Whilst on the subject of Memorials, passing through Hellifield last week I saw what looked like a brand new one, if thats a clean up, they have done a good job!

[PanBiker]

Shaun would be a good start although I think it will have to go out to tender. All his work is hand crafted rather than machine produced which may add a premium on cost. Nothing wrong with sounding him out though. The War Memorial Trust does not maintain a registry of suitably qualified people or make recommendations of who to use other than to get multiple quotes and ensure that anyone engaged is suitably accredited. The Borough council will no doubt have a list of contractors as well who could be invited to tender. It would be nice though if it could be kept in town.

[Thomo]

All of our recomendations, comments and images will now by passed to the engineering department. A meeting will be arranged shortly with the stonemasons, time to get back to the other project for a while now, this has suffered a little lately.

[Thomo]

Its been quite a busy week on the War Memorial front and many e/mails have been sent and received. I have explained the pro and cons of the two arrangements for mounting the new panels, ie. flush or surface mounted and the fact that whichever method is used the panels should have bevelled edges. My own choice for mounting was flush as this method is harder to vandalise, and I believe it looks better. These recommendations have been accepted and on Monday I will be meeting with Shaun Bradley to discuss the details and get a recommended thickness for the panels, surface mounting would have been less expensive but less pleasing to the eye, I am delighted that they have opted for flush. They have also taken up my offer to remove the metal plaque adjacent to the old Drill Hall door stone for complete renovation, when it is here it will go into a chemical bath to remove all old paint and detritus for as long as it takes, it will then be recoated with liquid plastic, white first then the blue, the lettering will then be picked out in gold and the surmounting roses finished in the proper colours, only this time the dominant rose "Will" be white!!!!