Ginnels, Alleys, Snickets. (Call them what you will.)

[David Whipp]

I suppose we could call it the In Gin (to paraphrase a Skye landmark); the pinnacle of Barnoldswick's hidden ginnels.

[Stanley]

One ginnel that intrigues me is the one that used to give access to the backs of the shops on Rainhall road off Frank Street. Now walled off and the beer garden in there. Another ginnel that vanished was the one from the end of Park Avenue up to the old lane that leads up to Letcliffe. I think I can remember it being open in the late 1950s.

[Stanley]

Some ginnels to add to the collection;

[David Whipp]

Now then Stanley, not sure if that first one qualifies as a ginnel - if it's wide enough to get a fire engine up it (historic variety), is it too wide to be called a ginnel? Not too many years ago, there were quite a few complaints about people not being able to find addresses on that access way and we got a street nameplate put up.

With the second one, it's good to see that Hugh's plants are coming along nicely on his window cill...

[Stanley]

Well, it's a gap between houses leading to an enclosed Square.... Near enough a ginnel surely?

[David Whipp]

But is it wide enough to be a street? Or is the answer to what it is (generically) in its name?

[Stanley]

I bow to your superior judgement......

[David Whipp]

No claim to be in a position to judge this issue! Would prefer a democratic decision after full debate...

[Big Kev]

Oxford dictionary says "narrow passage between buildings" but how do we define narrow? As there are front doors, opening onto the alleged "ginnel" I would call it a road

[Thomo]

I think that "alley" is the correct term, David's reference to a fire engine is spot on as one of the earlier fire stations was at the top end of that one.

[David Whipp]

Thomo, that's why I made the reference.

I'd happily call it a 'yard'...

[Big Kev]

As it was used by a fire engine and lot of references to alley as "a narrow lane, path, or passage way, often for pedestrians only", would steer me away from alley. I'm still with road at the moment but would consider street. I will continue to read considered argument.

[Thomo]

The aforementioned Fire Engine was an handcart appliance. The Road/Street/Ginnel/Alley. Passageway could also be referred to as an "Entry".

[David Whipp]

Yes, I don't think you'd get a modern day fire engine up there.

I'm still of the view that it's too wide for a ginnel, though.

[Stanley]

I'm considering raising a petition.......

[David Whipp]

It would seem the considered opinion expressed on the site is against accepting it as a ginnel Stanley.

If you're going to raise a petition, it'll have to be from the person on the street (or road, or alley, or snicket, or yard, or ginnel...)!

[Stanley]

I shall consult with my legal team and the Pendle CP. They may want to be associated with this.....

[Stanley]

I have been advised that David is arbiter on this matter and it is useless arguing with him. I therefore withdraw my contention that this is a ginnel...
Can we please have another?

[David Whipp]

The argument is never closed on a subjective matter like this, so perhaps we should leave the matter open about the designation of this thoroughfare?

Before we move on, we should identify what it's actually called... Hudson's Yard is the name given to the highway pictured in Stanley's first photo. (Which is why I thought 'yard' was an appropriate title.) Until a couple of years ago, there wasn't a street name plate and most everyone had a struggle to find it. One has now been put up. But that's of little use in identifying the different houses accessed off the yard, which belong to Church Street and The Butts as well as Hudson's Yard itself. The yard is a relic of what a lot of the oldest part of town must have been like before it was all swept away in housing clearance programmes.

And, no one has ventured to say where Stanley's second picture was taken; quite a regal location...

Anyhow, Stanley's voracious appetite calls; I can think of two links with the discussion on Hudson's Yard with this next one. The first is its width - is this one too narrow to be called a ginnel? (Its use over many years has certainly established it as a public right of way, though I doubt that it's recorded as such on the definitive map.) The other link I'm thinking of is a little more tenuous... can anyone work it out?

[Stanley]

Is this one the way you can get from Earl Street(?) into Hill Street?
As for Hudson's yard.... I have always thought that what was called Hudson's Buildings was either the one with the raILED FRONT AT THE TOP OF lAMB hILL OR THE BUILDINGS AT THE CORNER OPPOSITE THE cOMMERCIAL AT THE TOP OF bUTTS WHERE THE ESTATE AGANETS IS. (bugger caps lock!) On balance the evidence suggests the one at the top of Lamb hill which used to be a pie shop but I have never been absolutely certain.
The layout of Hudson's Yard suggests that as with one or two other areas in the town like the bottom of Esp Lane and Townhead, that these are very ancient settlement patterns that could date back well before Barlick was a homogeneous village. For another, look at the area bounded by Station Road, the old goods yard and Skipton Road.

[David Whipp]

Very close with your location on the last one Stanley, but not quite.

A delight of pre grid iron terraced streets in Barlick is the jumbled up way in which the buildings have developed. It's also one of the reasons we have so many ginnels...

[PanBiker]

Stanley's second picture not commented on yet is King Street I believe.

[David Whipp]

Agree on King Street.

Hugh Lawrence lives at the house pictured to the right of the ginnel. Hugh is one of the driving forces in Barnoldswick in Bloom (he bravely chaired the group in our first year). Yesterday, he was on his hands and knees clearing out the weeds between the block paving near the bus shelters on Fernlea Avenue. (Said pedestrian way definitely not to be termed a ginnel, just to bring this back on topic.)

[Bruff]

I mentioned the one on King Street there earlier in the thread. Does it qualify? It's not a through route, simply an access to the rear, so that for example my mother can get her bins out!

Richard Broughton

[David Whipp]

Richard, Stanley could have a sulk if both of his recent contributions are debarred from being described as ginnels; it's very provocative!

You did make the point earlier about this particular one.

Perhaps an official adjudication committee to arbitrate on these matters is needed?

Meanwhile, can anyone work out my tenuous link from the discussion arising from Hudson's Yard picture to the one that's not quite between Earl Street and Hill Street?