POLITICS CORNER

[Nolic]

[Stanley]

Eileen, dead right. Alexander the Great found the same problem long before the Victorians! We are the latest in a long line of 'conquerors' attempting the impossible. The basic problem is that Afghanistan is regarded as a national identity. It isn't and never has been, it's the home of a large number of disparate tribes and entities, all with their own agenda.
US Fed has just completed a 'stress test' on 19 major banks. 15 of them passed. The main focus was their exposure to European bond market. Now I wonder why they are checking on that? Should UK be doing the same thing?

[EileenDavid]

Did we go into Afghanistan to root out Al qaeda for blowing up the trade centre? From what I understood about the muslim extremists was to bring down the western economy which he suceeded in doing so why fight surely building up the western economy as quickly as possible would be more hurtful than war.

Ask for Irac that was only for the Oil otherwise they would have got rid of Mugabe if it was oppression they were opposed to. British politicians instead of policing the world should keep there noses in there own trough instead of Kowtowing to Europe and the USA and get on with rebuilding our country.

Eileen

[Stanley]

You're on the right lines Eileen. If you want to know more about US and Al-Qaeda read Baer's book, 'See no evil'.
Click on this link for a copy at £2.81 inc shipping. See No Evil
I was struck yesterday by the fact that a slight slow down in the rate of rise of unemployment is seen as a hopeful sign. I will repeat, how many of the jobs created are paying a living wage?

[EileenDavid]

Get them killed or maimed in war brings down the unemployment figures not my idea of solving a problem but seems to be the norm. What a waste of young lives.

Eileen

[Tardis]

Local Politics:

http://blog.lgiu.org.uk/2012/03/the-loc ... ndy-guide/

[Tizer]

Eileen, Afghanistan is only part of the story. Pakistan is the real big concern. It has about 100 nuclear weapons and has just boosted production of more. It's a politically unstable country with nuclear weapons and right next door to Afghanistan. Remember Bin Laden was in Pakistan. I don't like the military activity in Afghanistan and I think it will fail, followed by establishment of a new regime, Taleban or whatever, but the new lot will then move into Pakistan and grab the nuclear weapons. And, no, I don't know what the answer is. Have a look at this Reuters page: LINK

[Stanley]

Baer was a CIA operative in that area for many years and chronicles the mistakes that were made. We often forget that Al-Qaeda and Oscar Bin Liner were encouraged and funded by the CIA to make things difficult for the Russian occupiers. Well worth reading, incredibly naive policies that laid the foundations for 'the war on terror'. Same applies to Iraq after 1919, we used air power to attack villages that didn't pay taxes, used mustard gas against the 'natives' and many people there remember what happened and are still alive. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Bell and then look at David Ommisi's account of 'Air Power and Colonial control' Here's a NOP I wrote about it:

YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN’T HIDE.

Politics is a fascinating spectator sport. It provides a constant stream of examples of the pitfalls and traps which await the unwary in real life. We are watching such an example now in UK politics and it is, at the same time, frustrating and instructive to witness.

It’s the resurgence of the massive disagreement about whether it was right to attack Iraq ‘riding pillion with the US’ as the Chatham House report put it in a statement issued today. [formerly The Royal Institute of International Affairs] They have given as their opinion that the incursion into Iraq undoubtedly made the UK more likely to be attacked by fanatics. I use the single word ‘fanatics’ because I fear it is far too easy to qualify any description of the suicide bombers using the adjective ‘Muslim’.

The big problem for the Blair government is that they have invested so much time and effort into burying criticism of their actions in backing the US. Faced with the proposition that actions in Iraq have made the world more dangerous and rendered us more likely to attack as allies of the US they are forced to attempt to refute it. If they don’t, they are tacitly admitting that forecasts that this would happen before the attack, and informed opinion that this is exactly what has happened, were right. Ergo, the incursion was wrong.

In the past few days the human shields have been rolled out, all of them singing from the same hymn sheet. The refrain is, and here’s a typical politician’s rhetorical trick, ‘it is wrong to put forward excuses for the bombers’. Seeking the truth is not making excuses. Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary is the latest big gun to be wheeled out of the bunker and sang his chorus this dinnertime on R4. John Reid, the Minister of Defence even had the gall this morning on Today on R4 to claim the support of history in his assertion that because 9/11 and other bombings happened before the latest attack on Iraq it was obvious that any connection with that attack was wrong.

I’m afraid that once more it was Reid’s spurious arguments that pushed me over the edge. If he is going to use history he should read it first, it might save him from digging the hole they are in any deeper. The problem is of course that many people hearing him would believe him and say ‘well, that’s all right then’.

I would recommend that they go back slightly further and start by reading David Omissi’s article, ‘Baghdad and British Bombers’ published in the Guardian on January the 19th 1991. This was based on the research David had done on his book Air Power 1919-1938 in which he traced the history of the RAF in what was then Mesopotamia and the punitive bombing of the Kurds to force them to pay taxes. He also mentions the shelling of the tribesmen of the Euphrates when they rose in rebellion against British military rule in the summer of 1920, when the British army used gas shells - "with excellent moral effect" - in the fighting which followed.

This evidence blows a small hole in Dr Reid’s interpretation of ‘history’. It has evidently escaped his notice that there are tribal elders and younger people taught by them, in what is essentially an oral tradition, who have been bombed three times by the RAF in their lifetime. It seems to me that to assert that such experiences have no bearing on attitudes towards Britain is not only foolish but a gross distortion of the historical record. At the very least, the government is on very shaky ground if this is their only defence.

They are wriggling on a hook of logic that is entirely of their own making and just as all the efforts to discount criticism of the attack on Iraq have failed, this latest attempt to deflect blame will fail as well. They rely on a failure of memory on the part of the electorate and I’m afraid that in most cases this succeeds. It is the duty of those of us with slightly more retention to raise these matters even though we will be accused of acting as ‘excusers for the bombers’.

I hold no brief for George Galloway but do recognise that when a man speaks the truth he should be recognised and not vilified. In a recent speech he said that until the nations of the West renounced armed force as a tool of foreign policy they would continue to attract opposition and terrorist attacks. I can’t understand how anyone can argue that this isn’t the case. We aren’t talking here of armed force used in genuine defence against clear and present danger. We are talking about what we used to call ‘gunboat diplomacy’ and the concomitant damage it causes. It is generally agreed that 800 men, women and children are being killed in Iraq every month due to suicide bombings. This does not include ‘normal casualties’ caused by the activities of the security forces. These deaths are a direct result of the destruction of the Iraqi army, police and security forces by our troops because it opened the window to fanaticism.

In an article in the Guardian of February 19th 2003; ‘Blast from the Past’ by Matt Seaton, Simon Schama, when asked for his view on the proposed attack on Iraq as compared to WW2 refuted any comparison and ended his piece by saying; ‘As a consequence, if you were Bin Laden, you would be thrilled about the prospect of war: either there will be a great fat target of a western presence in Iraq for several years or there will be a broken and chaotic state: either way it will be a teddy bears' picnic for terrorism.’ Dr Reid and the rest of the Blair government should have been listening, at the very least they should note this and add it to their reading list. Here we have a historian applying the lessons of history and coming to a clear conclusion which has turned out to be exactly right.

To ignore the role of past actions in Iraq when seeking reasons for the recent terrible scenes in London is worse than simple ignorance, it is wilful distortion of the truth. This is of course not a complete answer to why young men with everything to live for were persuaded to take such violent action but it is a good place to start. What is even more important is the fact that until unpleasant facts are faced, until the truth not only of history but of recent acts is admitted, there is no chance of any successful strategy emerging in the fight against such acts because whatever action is taken will be based on ignorance and short term manipulation of the truth. This is not a sure foundation for policy.

SCG/18 July 2005

[Stanley]

Reading what I wrote in 2005 I was reminded of a recent speech Melvyn King made when he said that anyone who could see no relationship between our present economic troubles and the same mistakes made in the Inter-War years should go back and read the history. He's dead right. (And before anyone comes up with the old argument that 'things were different then' you may well be right but if I am wrong so are Omissi, Schama and King. Not bad company to be associated with!)

[Tripps]

"Things were different then" Sorry - couldn't resist it. On the list of 'logical fallacies' the 'appeal to authority' figures quite large.

[Stanley]

David, there's a difference between 'an appeal to authority' and citing evidence. The criterion is whether you believe they have made a correct assessment. From my reading I believe they have so I'm happy to be counted with them. If we ignore the lessons of history we are condemned to repeat them. Being an old fashioned social democrat helps as well. I look at current Coalition policies and relate them to the last time the Tories held power. The correlations are spooky! Same applies to comparison with the inter war history. I'm still looking for a copy of David Omissi's book on Air Power in which he detailed the tactics used in what was then Mesopotamia, rarer than hen's teeth which says something about the quality of his evidence.
PS. Triggered by this post I went and had a furtle on Bookfinder. The book is coming back onto the market now Iraq is tailing off and there are used copies for sale at prices up to $1800 for mint copies. I found a water-stained copy for a lot less so I've bitten the bullet and ordered it. At the very least I've put my money where my mouth is and there are no pockets in a shroud! It's all your fault David......

[PanBiker]

Thatchers letters and office memos released into the public domain reveal that contrary to Rupert Murdoch's denial, he was given the green light to buy the Times and Sunday Times, back in 1981 without reference to the Monopolies Commission. This doubled his empire overnight and of course had immediate benefits for the Tory's.

Revealed, Murdoch's Secret Meeting

[Tardis]

and of course smashed the luddite print unions.

The hole then created allowed all the other newspapers to move through too without the enormous fight that News International bore.

The benefits are still in the wider economy, and it is a matter of choice whether you buy News International products or not

[PanBiker]

and of course smashed the luddite print unions.

it is a matter of choice whether you buy News International products or not

Yes they did and I don't.

[Tripps]

Oh dear! It 's all my fault now. Never heard of David Omissi, so looked up his books. They look very interesting especially the Indian Army stuff. Out of my price range though. I don't understand why the 'print on demand' version should be so expensive. Did you not think of asking the library to source you a copy?
Good thread this - strong opinions, but no falling out.

[Tardis]

Someone sent me this as consolation

http://youtu.be/VZoIlmBulCQ

[Stanley]

It's a bugger isn't it David. MUP aren't noted for new editions and when Iraq started to boil up every library and policy tank wanted a copy. Even David couldn't get one! (I asked him) The book will cost me £126 but well worth it because I want to take my time reading it and have it available for reference. I've been digging into what we and the Seven Sisters did there for years, the roots of much of our present problems lie there. It was where Lt Harris first experimented with organised aerial bombing and we used chemical warfare against the Marsh Arabs. Many people would like to see this episode of history buried.
A long while ago, I commented on the site that if we'd injected the money that war would cost in aid to these countries we would not be facing the enmity we see now but I was attacked from all sides. Same applies to Afghanistan as well. Read the history and take note! Even Alexander the Great couldn't break the tribes. (But what the hell do I know about these things....)
I see that Ossie has come up with a cunning plan to encourage spending in the shops during the Olympics and Para-Olympics, He's going to suspend all Sunday Trading laws while they are on. I hope they have enough water.....

[Tardis]

I see that Ossie has come up with a cunning plan to encourage spending in the shops during the Olympics and Para-Olympics, He's going to suspend all Sunday Trading laws while they are on. I hope they have enough water.....

Considering the amount of disruption I think this is a fairly obvious answer to ensure that people can actually get out and about and buy their provisions.

The report for Barnoldswick's Tesco should give a much clearer idea, but just think what it means when the population of the city increases by the amount of visitors expected.

It will be a nightmare to use the tube, as it is bad enough on a good day

[Tardis]

Local politics:

Pendle now own Briefield Mill

[Stanley]

While Cameron is rabbiting on about road funding don't lose sight of developments in the EU. The Greek 'settlement' is coming under scrutiny and Portugal is now attracting attention. What happens in the EU is key to us in the UK but is going largely unnoticed.

[EileenDavid]

Although I agree with you on the EU and after the second bail out of Greece and Portugal what next will it be Spain followed by Italy, but I am of the opinion that the roads do need addressing they are appalling as any driver knows. Not only have we got the hazards of driving but also added pressure in avoiding potholes but the problem is not at Central Government but at Local Government level with over populated staffing levels not doing the jobs they are paid for.

What I have previously reiterated the state of the roads are due to poorly reinstated excavations made originally by the utillities but they are not to blame as due to changes in the PUSWA responsibility for making good was removed from them leaving them only being allowed to make a temporary reinstatement and then pay the councils to make them permanant. So were has all the money gone certainly not on doing the work they have been paid for on our roads. It's disappeared into the black hole (not a utillities excavation either) but diverted possibly to their pension fund.

Eileen

[Tardis]

Hmmm, Mr Burnham, should I be saying that the GP surgery is full and has the lights on?

[Tardis]

Strange budget, will have to wait for full analysis but anything that makes Bliar pay more in taxes is alright by me.

[Tardis]

Local Politics:

Planning Permission meeting tonight at Salterforth Village hall for the development of Silentnight's old display rooms with all those dwellings and removing the car park from local users

7pm

[Tardis]

Local Politics:

Planning Permission meeting tonight at Salterforth Village hall for the development of Silentnight's old display rooms with all those dwellings and removing the car park from local users

7pm

deferred

another spirited public meeting