STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
One matter that surfaced during the negotiations between the CHSC and the Craven Bank was a complaint that the bank's contractor, George Rushworth from Colne was using dynamite to break up the large castings in the engine house. I was intrigued by the use of this trade name for the Nobel explosive so I did some digging and sure enough, it was first marketed under that name shortly after being patented in 1867.
Stanley Challenger Graham
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"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
The Clover engine at Rochdale. A good example of the pride and attention to detail that went into engines and their houses. This is something we have lost today, no electric motor could embody such care and attention. Someone once referred to these houses as 'Cathedrals of Power'. Dead right and there were many examples. Some of the Victorian sewage pumping stations exceeded the cathedrals in ornamentation!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
Dee Mill was another good example.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
If you want to fully understand steam engines, design and build your own from scratch..... That's what I'm doing at the moment and enjoying every minute of it!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
John Burlison went me this image and says "one side of the Carel brothers (Belgium) 1,500hp cross compound steam engine, in Butts Mill, Leigh, Lancs, the photo was taken in 1911, and the engine dismantled in 1959-60 by Mee & Cocker (Leigh) Ltd, just after the mill closed"

I'm slightly puzzled by the very large flywheel. I've had a look at the Black Book and Arthur Roberts reported 1500hp, drop valves and 66 ropes. You can reckon 50hp for each rope and so the flywheel is sized for a 3000hp engine. I think John is right in his description but that this was one of the many engines built just before the Great War ready for proposed expansion but stopped by the war. It was probably intended to be a double tandem but only one side was built. That's only a guess but not too far from the truth perhaps.
I'm slightly puzzled by the very large flywheel. I've had a look at the Black Book and Arthur Roberts reported 1500hp, drop valves and 66 ropes. You can reckon 50hp for each rope and so the flywheel is sized for a 3000hp engine. I think John is right in his description but that this was one of the many engines built just before the Great War ready for proposed expansion but stopped by the war. It was probably intended to be a double tandem but only one side was built. That's only a guess but not too far from the truth perhaps.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
John mailed me and I went on line searching for the mill. Plenty of evidence in the images I found to show that Butts had the same problem as Mons at Todmorden. Built with the intention of making a double mill but it never happened. Mons was slightly different in that they installed the complete engine and it never ran at full power 4,000hp. The Trencherfield engine at Wigan Pier was the same, installed for a mill twice the size but the expansion never happened. The big problem was that the seeming prosperity at the beginning of the 20th century was shattered by the Great War and the subsequent collapse of the industry starting in July 1920. The only group I know that bucked the trend was Shiloh, when Colonel Gartside started his expansion programme when everyone else was drawing back he was thought to be mad but Shiloh survived to be the last big independent spinning company, outliving even the massive Lancashire Spinning Corporation.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
The Ellenroad engine in 1991. By contrast with the engines that were never fully utilised, Ellenroad was installed as a 1500hp triple expansion in a new mill equipped with mules. When the mill was rebuilt in 1919 after a major fire it was changed over to ring spinning which demanded more power. The engine was converted to a double tandem which was indicated at 2,400hp when running at its peak and later, when the right side was shut down for economy the left hand engine was stretched to its limits and made 1500hp. It was one of the hardest worked engines in Lancashire. This pic was done shortly before I left for pastures new.
The snappers may be interested in the lens use to get this image. It was the Nikon 13mm wide angle on 35mm TriX film. A piece of glass on the front like a goldfish bowl and a wonderful lens. It was perfectly rectilinear if set up properly. Click on the image to enlarge.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
I noticed something about that image this morning. If you look to the left of the main steam valve you'll see the temporary control wheel I made which I later improved with a proper standard and hand-wheel. So this picture was slightly earlier than I thought.

Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
I was lucky in that I found the cast iron standard in the yard of the foundry next to Geoff Smith's foundry in Pitt Street Keighley. It was for a valve at a water works and was going for scrap.

Cleaning up the casting on Newton's old Wilson lathe. This was a very accurate lathe despite its age which was why Newton saved it when B&P closed down. He had no room for it so he gave it to me and I swapped it for the Colchester I had before.
Worth mentioning that fitting the new six inch stop vale in the steam range was part of a bigger job which included a separate electrically operated valve nearer the cylinder. This and the vacuum breaker I put in were all part of the fully automated stop system I designed for the engine. It included all the necessary sensors and a computer. The idea was that if, in the course of running, the engine exceeded certain parameters for speed, boiler pressure and vacuum it stopped automatically. When I left all it needed was an air compressor to actuate the vacuum breaker and commissioning. I don't think anyone ever did it.... A great shame because it would have been the best protected engine in the UK.
Cleaning up the casting on Newton's old Wilson lathe. This was a very accurate lathe despite its age which was why Newton saved it when B&P closed down. He had no room for it so he gave it to me and I swapped it for the Colchester I had before.
Worth mentioning that fitting the new six inch stop vale in the steam range was part of a bigger job which included a separate electrically operated valve nearer the cylinder. This and the vacuum breaker I put in were all part of the fully automated stop system I designed for the engine. It included all the necessary sensors and a computer. The idea was that if, in the course of running, the engine exceeded certain parameters for speed, boiler pressure and vacuum it stopped automatically. When I left all it needed was an air compressor to actuate the vacuum breaker and commissioning. I don't think anyone ever did it.... A great shame because it would have been the best protected engine in the UK.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
I wanted a proper hand wheel like the original and this was by far the biggest job. It took twice as long as the standard but I think it was worth the trouble.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
If anyone from Ellenroad is reading this, the system for auto shut down is still in place and could be commissioned very easily.... One of these days there is going to be an accident with a preserved engine and everyone will be in trouble. A bit of forward planning could make Ellenroad bullet-proof!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
Click to enlarge. Sorry for the quality but pulled out of a larger image. The red object behind and below the gauges will be a mystery to many. It's the vacuum breaker that I fitted as part of the engine management system. Designed to be held shut by compressed air it has a nut under the lid to hold it closed. There's an electric stop valve in the steam main as well..... Both never used, just waiting to be commissioned. Fitted in 1990.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
When you stop a steam engine quickly the residual vacuum in the system keeps the engine running longer. The vacuum breaker destroyed the vacuum by opening a valve in the system to atmosphere. It didn't mean an instantaneous stop because of inertia but it made it as fast as possible. Newton and I tested the effect of the vacuum on a light engine and frightened each other to death. I must be the only man alive who has stood next to an 85 ton flywheel doing around 100RPM. Lovely!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
I'm thinking a lot about crossheads as I make my latest engine.

The crosshead on the Bancroft engine. It looks dirty but that's the oil Newton and I slathered all over it to stop rust after we had stopped it. I'm going to make a simpler version of this but it reminded me of something that always puzzled me. The oil in the slide always gradually gathered at the front side. Dead level so it wasn't that, always puzzled me but I never arrived at a reason..... Ellenroad was the same.
The crosshead on the Bancroft engine. It looks dirty but that's the oil Newton and I slathered all over it to stop rust after we had stopped it. I'm going to make a simpler version of this but it reminded me of something that always puzzled me. The oil in the slide always gradually gathered at the front side. Dead level so it wasn't that, always puzzled me but I never arrived at a reason..... Ellenroad was the same.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
The cross head slide had a brass comb fitted on each end to encourage even spread of the oil on the face of the slide.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
I've always said that building small steam engines increases insight into the principles. My present concentration on the crosshead reminds me of the tell tale fitters marks you will find on the crosshead slides of almost every engine, made by the fitters when measuring events in the stroke like top and bottom centres and mid-stroke. Have a look at the Bancroft slide, they are still there.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
One of the great lies propagated after WW2 by the electricity industry was that steam engines were inefficient and replacement by individual electric motors was more economic. Steam plants were and still are, better thermal efficiency than mains electricity which due to transmission losses, is incredibly wasteful. Many good plants were scrapped and shortly afterwards the mills got into financial trouble because of increased energy costs. Truly a Cunning Wheeze!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
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- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
As I build my donkey engine (yes, I've decided that's what it is....) I reflect on how in the more modern engines the designers realised that lightness in moving parts and balance were important in engines.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
Henry Corliss (he of the valve motions) was a great advocate of high speed running. British engineers were very conservative and ran their engines too slow on the whole. Newton and I agreed it was painful to watch most engines running because we knew they could stand another twenty rpm. Even worse when they are run at half speed 'for safety'. I had many arguments with EH about this and in the end they agreed with me that this is bad for them, shortens life and is more dangerous in the long run.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
The East Hill Steam Engine Manufacturing Company moves steadily forward.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
- Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.
Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
- Location: Barnoldswick. Nearer to Heaven than Gloria.
Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
Yates and Thom independent drive boiler feed pump. 1895.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
The engine I am building begins to take shape. What strikes me is that despite the fact I made no drawings and just used what bits I had laid around I must have soaked up a lot of information in my years with engines because it is turning out to be a very compact and powerful little engine that will have good proportions and be well balanced when all the metal is added to the front end. It looks right and that pleases me no end. The drawing office in the back of my head has done well so far.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
- Stanley
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 100717
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 12:01
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Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
Johnny Pickles designed this donkey engine in 1914 when he was the foreman at Henry Brown and Sons. They made them until 1929 when the firm liquidated
Stanley Challenger Graham
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Stanley's View
scg1936 at talktalk.net
"Beware of certitude" (Jimmy Reid)
The floggings will continue until morale improves!
Old age isn't for cissies!
Re: STEAM ENGINES AND WATERWHEELS
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/an ... ne-284097/
Stanley not unlike your unit !
Stanley not unlike your unit !